mk 23's

[c13Garrison]

Shouldn't mk23 torps be just as defective as mk14's? They sound like the exact same animal just with no longer range setting. Once you've had one awful experience with 14s its too easy to avoid them, both 10s & later 23s cost no renown.

[chris455]

Mark XXIII had the same Mk VI exploder as the Mk XIV. Same depth engine, same gyro gear. Difference was purely in the propulsion area, no low speed/long range setting in the XXIII.
They suffer from all other defects endemic to the XIV.

The reason that XXIIIs cost no renown later is probably because the high speed/ short range setting becomes increasingly less attractive as Japanese anti-submarine capabilities get better as the war progresses, necessitating attacks from greater range.

[c13Garrison]

Well the mk 23s modelled in the game have near zero defects, so that certainly isn't accurate then. A true need is to build on Bubb's 14 work and Joe's 28 work to come up with a single comprehensive torpedo update, that both tweaks them to realism & makes it difficult to avoid the mk 14, by making the 14 the only torp that costs zero renown.

[Bubblehead1980]

Actually my understanding was that Mark 23 did not enter service until late 43(game allows you to get them too early) after the torpedo bugs were worked out so none went to sea with the magnetic detonator they had the improved firing pin so duds were not a factor.In my mod they do have same chance of running deep throughout the war as do Mark 14's although the constant, major depth problems are solved as they were in real life in late 42.

[c13Garrison]

Ah, well as long as the 23's only work on the contact pin, I guess they're ok as is then.

[joefremont]

On doing research for my mod I checked the games configured files and discovered the only difference between the mk14 and mk23 was the lack of the slow speed on the 23 and that the mk14 had a less powerfull warhead than other standard US and German torpedoes. I think that was to reflect the early war TNT warhead.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Actually my understanding was that Mark 23 did not enter service until late 43(game allows you to get them too early) after the torpedo bugs were worked out so none went to sea with the magnetic detonator they had the improved firing pin so duds were not a factor.In my mod they do have same chance of running deep throughout the war as do Mark 14's although the constant, major depth problems are solved as they were in real life in late 42.

Yes, that's entirely correct. To make it even weirder, most of the mark 23's were back-converted to Mark 14s because skippers wanted that slow speed for long shots. No wonder the couldn't hit anything! The slower your torpedo the longer your target has to do something purposeful or accidentally to ruin your shot. Not only that but inaccuracies in your setup are much more meaningful at slow speed.

Heck, if you can't get within range of a high speed Mark 14, it's not even worth it to take the shot unless it's a very high priority target and you just figure a 10% chance of success is as good as you'll ever see.

[Admiral Halsey]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Yes, that's entirely correct. To make it even weirder, most of the mark 23's were back-converted to Mark 14s because skippers wanted that slow speed for long shots. No wonder the couldn't hit anything! The slower your torpedo the longer your target has to do something purposeful or accidentally to ruin your shot. Not only that but inaccuracies in your setup are much more meaningful at slow speed.

Heck, if you can't get within range of a high speed Mark 14, it's not even worth it to take the shot unless it's a very high priority target and you just figure a 10% chance of success is as good as you'll ever see.

Funny thing is that in RL those long shots could and did hit.

[Rockin Robbins]

Yes, a stopped analog clock tells time correctly twice a day. However, recommending using a stopped clock to tell time is something wise people don't do.

Any hits from range beyond what a high speed Mark 14 can reach on a moving target are pure luck. When probability says you have a 10% chance of success you find a way to get the odds in your favor. A long distance shot ain't gonna cut the cheese.

There's one recipe for success with a World War II submarine. Don't get detected. Get close--then get closer. Fire a spread of two or three. Your shots should be from so close (500 yards is pretty ideal) that no matter what your target does the torpedoes say BOOM.

Unless you're looking at a battleship or aircraft carrier, refuse to take any shots other than the above. There are one or two exceptions.

[TorpX]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

To make it even weirder, most of the mark 23's were back-converted to Mark 14s because skippers wanted that slow speed for long shots.

I've wondered about this. As you say, the odds of getting a hit beyond 4,500 yds. would seem to be much reduced. Were IJN ASW efforts that much better? Or maybe sub skippers just wanted to keep their options open, and have the longer range, just in case.

[Bubblehead1980]

In real life, in daylight with normal visual conditions, I think getting a hit on target from more then 4500 yards was probably unlikely but it did happen on more than a few occasions.In the game this is a long shot but it does happen.Night time, is a different story, esp if its surface attack.Assumign your data is accurate, you have a good chance of a hit even at long range.

The Mark 23 came about as a simplified version of Mark 14, no magnetic exploder and no low speed setting since it was rarely used before then.However, by mid 44 something changed, the Japanese started taking ASW efforts serious and it was not always easy to fire from ideal range, esp on larger, well screened convoys and task forces.Skippers found themselves needing a torpedo with more range, esp as night surface attacks were now a normal tactic.While they still wanted to get close to fire, they enjoyed having the option so many were converted back to Mark 14 or were scrapped for parts.

[Rockin Robbins]

My normal attack pattern for a convoy is to take my first shots from outside the escort screen at the largest target but I NEVER shoot from outside 3000 yards. I like to shoot from about 2500 yards when I can. That puts me still well outside the screen and flooded down on the surface. I shoot stern torpedoes, immediately surface and jet out of there.

I just can't see any advantage at all to taking a much lower percentage shot from half again as far away. If it's night and the largest ship is a big one, I have about a 90% chance of boom.

The purpose of this first shot is to call the dinner bell for all the nice guys packing depth charges so they can mill around aimlessly wasting firecrackers on whales. While they're doing that, I'm doing a high speed sweep around the tail of the convoy and headed to the unescorted side for some up close and personal attention without the interference of the escorts.

In 1944 most subs were returning with very, very low scores, complaining that they couldn't get good shots. Eugene Fluckey (rhymes with Lucky) didn't believe any of this long shot bullschnitzel. He exploited his strengths against the enemy's weaknesses. If you give up your ability to get in close without being detected, you give up the ability to garner a meaningful amount of tonnage.

The challenge is to fight YOUR fight, not the enemy's fight. When you play it their way and take 4500 yard shots, you'll get the kind of rewards that THEY want you to have. So really, your strategy reflects the answer to "Whose side are you on, anyway?"

Following the crowd always means that your success is no better than theirs. In 1944 captains of submarines were not having great individual success, although the numbers of submarines in service resulted in a lot of sinkings. Exceptional success, such as Admiral Fluckey had, being the most decorated boat and crew of the entire war, means abandoning generally accepted practices where original ideas promise exponentially improved results. Fluckey did this and set the Pacific on its ear through individual daring and careful assessment of risk. He was convinced that hiding and taking long shots was no safer than running on the surface and getting in close, but guaranteed low results. He was right and his record shows that.