UK Politics Thread

[Skybird]

Parliament is anything but the innocent victim here. For over two years they have made monkeys of themselves. They derailed things as much from their side, as Johnson and Cameron did in the beginning and May did over the main going. They were determined to bypass the referendum, which by the very rules the English gave themselves was meant to be a binding one - and so many of these monkeys were determined not to obey to that and delivering a meaningful Brexit.



None of them all is innocent here. Not Johnson. Not May. And certainly not parliament. They ended uo where they deserve to be,a d and they worked very hard to end up right there and nowhere else.



No innocent victims here. They suffer their own self-made Karma.


If I were the English people, I would hang each and everyone of these monkey into the trees until the crows are done with them.



Needless to say, even if Johnson succeeds and get a meaningful Brexit through (and as I said, I doubt that he realyl wants that), the years to come now will be so much harder for the UK to bear than would have been needed if they would have spend those two years much more wisely and would have fought the EU more determined. With May signing a deal that was clear would not be ratified and that gave any weapon the EU could have dreamed of to Brussel for keeping the English in forever, the worst of possible outcomes was secured. The situation now and the parliament madhouse beign sent into cabin arrest, is just a symptim and logical consequence.



May should be charged for high treason. Johnson lied three years ago, and people fell for what he said, that is the guilt of the people. But May maximised dmaages to the UK and made it much,much worse with her treason. and that is what she should eb charged for: High Treason, conspiracy with a foreign state/entity against the UK, and acting against vital key interests of the UK. More clearly the original old meaning of "High Treason" cannot be defined.


I expected so very much different things from the British politicians three years ago. How very wrong I was!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ Sorry Marcus, but i have seldom read so much nonsense.

Bercow: "This is not a standard prorogation."

"BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith said "the uproar in Parliament wasn't just Pantomime politics - there is genuine fury and incredulity that at such a crucial moment for the nation, the place is being shut down.""

I just wonder how much people notice, and know who is responsible for it.

Originally Posted by Catfish

Well, since this Boris has done nothing regarding proposals or negotiations but claiming to do it (so still lying all the time), I meanwhile agree to a hundred percent, deal or no deal. Out.
And now you can take Boris and Farage and Rees-Mogg and build a perfect new England, good luck.

Parliament voted on and agreed to Article 50 but never thought the referendum result would turn out as it has.

The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of parliament.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Parliament is anything but the innocent victim here. For over two years they have made monkeys of themselves. They derailed things as much from their side, as Johnson and Cameron did in the beginning and May did over the main going. They were determined to bypass the referendum, which by the very rules the English gave themselves was meant to be a binding one - and so many of these monkeys were determined not to obey to that and delivering a meaningful Brexit.



None of them all is innocent here. Not Johnson. Not May. And certainly not parliament. They ended uo where they deserve to be,a d and they worked very hard to end up right there and nowhere else.


No innocent victims here. They suffer their own self-made Karma.


If I were the English people, I would hang each and everyone of these monkey into the trees until the crows are done with them.



Needless to say, even if Johnson succeeds and get a meaningful Brexit through (and as I said, I doubt that he realyl wants that), the years to come now will be so much harder for the UK to bear than would have been needed if they would have spend those two years much more wisely and would have fought the EU more determined. With May signing a deal that was clear would not be ratified and that gave any weapon the EU could have dreamed of to Brussel for keeping the English in forever, the worst of possible outcomes was secured. The situation now and the parliament madhouse beign sent into cabin arrest, is just a symptim and logical consequence.



May should be charged for high treason. Johnson lied three years ago, and people fell for what he said, that is the guilt of the people. But May maximised dmaages to the UK and made it much,much worse with her treason. and that is what she should eb charged for: High Treason, conspiracy with a foreign state/entity against the UK, and acting against vital key interests of the UK. More clearly the original old meaning of "High Treason" cannot be defined.


I expected so very much different things from the British politicians three years ago. How very wrong I was!

Well said that man

[Catfish]

Regardless what Johnson would have come out with, you cannot earnestly believe that there would be any constructive or any talk at all be possible with this clown?

Theresa May a "traitor"? Too much of "The Sun" eh? Did your Iq recently drop by 100 ? Why do People suddenly fall again for that kid of BS!
What about Cummings? Does no one see what Bannon, Farage and this rat are doing? I will spare Johnson because he is plain too dumb.

Some western nations in the world are currently on a way back to xenophobism, nationalism and pure idiocy. I now say LET THEM! The sooner they feel themselves what it means to fall back the better.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Well, since this Boris has done nothing regarding proposals or negotiations but claiming to do it (so still lying all the time), I meanwhile agree to a hundred percent, deal or no deal. Out.
And now you can take Boris and Farage and Rees-Mogg and build a perfect new England, good luck.

There he goes assuming/asserting my political allegiances again, no tories or Ukippers in my voting record thanks.
Maybe save your embarrassing hack labels for facebook.
Boris in my eyes is potentially a vessel to just get the f- on with it, nothing more. I have no love for the posh halfwit but he at least has a mandate to leave in the form of the 2016 referendum.
Where as those blocking the way have a mandate from whom exactly? They lost the referendum, they are trailing in the polls and are blocking a General Election, need I say more?

[mapuc]

An election to the English Parliament is not the right answer or solution

Instead the English people should have a second referendum, not to make a second decision whether they will stay in EU or not

A referendum where they will be asked following question

Shall Great Britain leave

without a deal(hard brexit)
Or
With the current deal
(maybe not those words)
It's after having read your answer after my last nonsens-post.

The government and the parliament keeps on throwing words at each other in the English Parliament, so why doesn't they let the people have the last word.

Markus

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by mapuc

A referendum where they will be asked following question

Shall Great Britain leave

without a deal(hard brexit)
Or
With the current deal


Markus

It would likely make no difference. what ever the result, parliament could do the same thing again when it comes to the crunch, e.g vote no to the deal, and vote no to no deal.
The only reason some mps want a second referendum, is that they 'hope' it will give them support for the course of action they personally want to take, (doesn't mean it will), and if it doesn't they can just ignore it and push for what they want anyway (yet again).

Only way you'd get me to vote in a second referendum is if parliament, voted and agreed on how to act on its outcome first and it was legally binding.
Failing that it would be a fairly pointless excersize.

And its not just up to us how long we can take to decide what we are doing, its also up to the EU. They are fed up with us and I don't blame them - but its still unlikely they will be in hurry to trigger Article 50 and kick us to the curb, despite the fact it would make them look strong and us weak if they actually did it.
but they get money from us while we are still a member. (almost a quarter of there budget even) And the bloc hasn't been doing so well for money over the past decade as I'm sure you have noticed.

[Skybird]

Careful with those money claims, many people have gotten much stuff wrong there.


This was the brutto in-payment by states 2017, in billions of Euros



https://de.statista.com/statistik/da...haushalt-2010/


Germany paid the most with over 21%, next came France with a bit above 15% and then the UK with around 12%, then Italy with 11%.


You have to reduce the numbers in that table above by the cash flowing back from the EU into the UK (in various formats and for various service sectors), and the so-called Brit rabate.So the actual net payment from Londown to Brussel is even significantly smaller. Thge campaign three yeras ago that every week 350 million coins were sent to Brussel, was no really hitting the nail on top. It ignored the flowback.


Personally I think the whole redistribution scheme is illegitimate and silly. It allows many parasites in poltical service to make a living from moving the money around themselves . But what else do you expect in a planned economy and a planned currency system. Ergonomically, the system is a nightmare and a folly.

[Skybird]

Scottish court declares prorogation unlawful.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by JU_88

There he goes assuming/asserting my political allegiances again, no tories or Ukippers in my voting record thanks.
Maybe save your embarrassing hack labels for facebook. [...]

I leave Facebook and twitter to its usual clientele, thank you.
My second part/sentence ("You can now take Farage...") was not directed at you, or an answer to that, but yes i'm aware it looks like it. Sorry.

Regarding the brexit and if people really want it, or were even informed in a way that they could make an educated decision about it, remains debatable. They have been lied to, but then wars have been started with similar lies, so why learn from history.

They have elected a certain range of people to represent them and do the best for the nation, and a lot of the latter obviously think that brexit will do harm. Now they threw that referendum and it turned not out as they expected.
I am sure if you make a referendum about death penalty and accept the outcome you will soon have that law. As maybe painting all roads yellow, or award Boris the joker award of the year.

Naming this research vessel Boaty McBoatface by some other referendum also did not turn out as intended, however in this silly matter they did not respect the referendum. Unbelievable!

If some Farage tells you it is necessary to burn down all the woods in England, and there's a referendum, and for whatever reason (lies, propaganda or sheer stupidity) this referendum turns out to be the people's will to really burn it all down, would the government "respect the will of the people", or would they throw it in the dust bin where it belongs?
Also, it was a question directed at the people to advise the government of a general direction, it was and is non-commital and legally not binding.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Scottish court declares prorogation unlawful.

I'm not sure what impact the judgement will have on the current suspension of Parliament but the government said it will appeal against the ruling to the Supreme Court in London.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

If some Farage tells you it is necessary to burn down all the woods in England, and there's a referendum, and for whatever reason (lies, propaganda or sheer stupidity) this referendum turns out to be the people's will to really burn it all down, would the government "respect the will of the people", or would they throw it in the dust bin where it belongs?
Also, it was a question directed at the people to advise the government of a general direction, it was and is non-commital and legally not binding.

Burn down the woods, and let the people learn the hard way that this was bad decision, though in seriousness that's quite a false equivalency the subject of being an EU member state or not is nuanced, it has pros and cons. Burning all trees has no positives at all.

Are governments there to serve the will of their people, or they there to control the people, Bottom-up or top-down rule? which do you prefer? because you sound in favor of the latter.
If you going to let the state over rule the people on the matter of Brexit, why not everything else on the basis of their 'trusted expertise'?. You know we quite like our civil rights, but if the state decides they are not in our best interest, is it fine they abolish them? - since our elite overlords know whats best?
Democracy means giving a people the right to their own self determination, if they decide to burn it all down, as a democratic leader - who are you to stand in their way?

You are working off the assumption - and rather tired Pro remain arguments that:,
a) Brexiteers didn't know what they voted for (too stupid)
b) they were overwhelmingly taken in by Ukip propaganda - (yet Ukip got no where in the post referendum GE)
c) No deal leave will be a massive sky falling in disaster that will punish many who voted for it.

Tell me how you know there is any truth to a) b) and c) because there is no evidence to support that any of it that true or not, what you are repeating is Remainer speculation.

[Skybird]

Ordinary Peter and Paul do not have a mclue of nothing, so the fate of a nation is in bad hands if all decisions are elft to the people. If you leave deciions to experts hgowever, or voted representatives, than this only makes sense iof these are indeed expoerts and indeed know it better.


And nthat is absolutely in dohbt boht wioth regard to experts and polticans. The overwhelming, heart-saddening majprit yof them are selfish skunks and incompeten, ideology-driven idiots themselves.


Thats why I want to reduce the playground size where politicians can govern amok to the smallest possible, imaginable size, anmd take away form them as much power as possiblpe, and leave admionstration in the regions as small as possible. Becaseuw the nbigger the playground plticans play on, the bigger the consequences for everybody form their errors and insanities. The harder the falloput is to be managed afterwards. The more difficult it becomes to repair thre dfmage and clean up the brown stuff these players have left behind.



Diversification of risk. Foprcing management streuctures to keep wiothin dimensions that everybody affected can oversee and can undersytand: that is what transparency is called. As much self-repsonsibility left to the individual as possible from a communal standpoint: if the decision and acting of the idniviodual doe snot harm others, the others have no claim to want governing the individual nevertheless. Nobody must live for the sake of somebody else. He may form a voluntary, free decision to do so - but not be made subject of an obligation to do so. Freedom mjst not onlyallow the chance to succeed by one'S own deeds and decisions but also to fail and to face the consequences.



The EU ignores, violates all this. And that is why more and more freedom-loving people dispise and hate it so much. Its tyranny in paternalistic disguise. A wolf in sheeps' skin. And it lies and betrays on its on behalf.



What did Juncker said 2005 on the French referendum: "If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'." And thats what they did. Thats what this gangsters club always does. They do not accept No for an answer. They send you voting until they get the result that they command.



For this underhanded attitude he and the EU deserve to be destroyed. Any government ticking like this should be brought down immediately, because it then has turned into the biggest enemy of the people, an oppressor, a tyrant.

[STEED]

Originally Posted by JU_88

a) Brexiteers didn't know what they voted for (too stupid)
b) they were overwhelmingly taken in by Ukip propaganda - (yet Ukip got no where in the post referendum GE)
c) No deal leave will be a massive sky falling in disaster that will punish many who voted for it.

Oh goodie let me have ago....

a) True too a point, now you made be wondering why I said that after all I voted leave. In my case when the EEC morphed into the EU this went way belong what it was meant to be. I paid little notice of the reforendrum as my mind was already made up but if I did I would not have voted.

As I said both campaign's ran disgustingly and both sides treated it as a fun competition, enough of me now to the point raised. Too stupid no the fault lay in the campaign far too short and rotten useless info from both sides. The question on the ballet paper was crystal clear.

b) No, and here is why, many remainers blame UKIP which is wrong. UKIP ran their own independent campaign which played no part of the Vote Leave campaign that told UKIP to clear off.

c) For me I took into account the risk and lets be honest we as in all sides have no idea what will really happen as no country as I am aware of has left the EU. Greenland left the EEC but that was a long time ago. For better or worst the result was to leave but I do feel at the time of the reforendrum there should have been a double leave question asking leave with or without a deal. That said the whole mess lays at Westminster whom bogged it up in the first place, they caused the bloody mess they should clean it up and leave the EU.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by STEED

Oh goodie let me have ago....

a) True too a point, now you made be wondering why I said that after all I voted leave. In my case when the EEC morphed into the EU this went way belong what it was meant to be. I paid little notice of the reforendrum as my mind was already made up but if I did I would not have voted.

a) Is true to a point for both sides, way too many die hard Brexiteers and Remainers alike, seem to understand shockingly little about the EU when pressed on it beyond the robotic group fanboyism of waving a union jack or painting their face blue. Admittedly its not simple institution that can be easily understood.

I sense its more of a case of what it represents, and people picked a side based on that.

People who are overly progressive and keen on unions and collectives, View barriers and borders between nations as a hindrance to our advancement, have a glossy view of others cultures but a selectively negative view of their own - Boom you're a remainer.

People who are more nationalist and keen on the preservation of their own culture and traditions, see the necessity in having borders and boundaries, have selectively glossy view of their own culture and either a negative or just indifferent view of others. - Boom, Brexiteer.

Nothing really wrong with either of those stand points, but that's how many will have very simply and largely emotionally aligned them selves with out any real analysis of what it is exactly we are remaining in or leaving behind.
Those were the easy but not very intelligent ways or picking a side in the Brexit debate. its not that those people are stupid, they might be brilliant in other ways and just have other things they would rather focus their time and energy on.

but if we going to split hairs on why 'the people' collectively choose what they choose and question the legitimacy of their decisions, there may as well never be another peoples referendum or even an election ever again. If you are going to be democratic you must accept peoples flaws and ignorance. Or you just embrace a dictatorship run by elites who will decide everything for you.
if you like democracy, you have to still like it even when it doesn't go your way.