Was German radar really this bad?

[Bubblehead1980]

It's May 1943(yes Black May) and while en route to patrol off Nova Scotia, encountered a convoy in Grid BD. Since this is my first patrol with radar was hoping it would help but radar man never made a peep, nothing showed up on the map.My watchmen spotted the convoy first, at night.Even when under the 10,000 M range listed in the description, no report.This bugged or nerfed a bit too much in OM or was it this bad? I know the IJN had inferior radar but Germans? Attacked from well outside the screen using FAT torpedos and missed.Anyone have tutorial on how to use them? I think I have it figured out and just didnt get lucky enough to score hits this time. Forced to crash dive after spotted by escort and was depth charged(and possibly hedgehogs, external cam disabled so not sure) for 5 hours.Most determined attack(and accurate, boat did suffer damage, I went t0 220 meters) in my Type IX to get away.

It was. The research for radar in Germany was neglected early on. Later in the war, the research in air-search/warning-radar was boosted up high, but ground-search/sea-search-radar was always the little stepbrother to be forgotten until it was to late.

[Hinrich Schwab]

None of the German radar sets were spectacular. By American and British standards, they were terrible. METOX, in particular, was nasty because its range was poor, it relied early in its life on the crude Biscay Cross, which was fixed and had to be manually adjusted, and worst of all was detectable. Black May saw the greatest use of the METOX and not so coincidentally, this was the month that lost the Second Battle of the Atlantic for Germany. It was bad enough with HF/DF and the Enigma compromised, but the detectability of the METOX was the literal nail in the coffin. I know that in stock UBM, this detectability is modeled. Once I replaced my set with Naxos, I did not have as much trouble, but German radar was unreliable, at best.

[Bubblehead1980]

I read it was easily detected by the Allies but did not know its performance was that bad.Wow what a liability and yes I suspected that Allied units in OM can detect it(thus its off most of the time, turn it on now and then for a sweep) because noticed planes swarmed on me when it was open and a hunter killer group found me when I was running with it on for too long.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Yeah. METOX is a giant "Kick Me" sign. It tells the Tommies exactly where to drop bombs. If I am stuck with it, I turn it off. If I have a chance, I drop it for Naxos the first chance I get.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

Yeah. METOX is a giant "Kick Me" sign. It tells the Tommies exactly where to drop bombs. If I am stuck with it, I turn it off. If I have a chance, I drop it for Naxos the first chance I get.

Think it may be bugged in SH 4 though.I keep it turned off but tested it when making a night surface attack on convoy in early June 43(same patrol) and even at 4000M it did not detect enemy ships.Think that in an attempt to show how poor the metox was, its nerfed too much as my radar man never reports a contact even though the lines are dancing on the scope.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Think it may be bugged in SH 4 though.I keep it turned off but tested it when making a night surface attack on convoy in early June 43(same patrol) and even at 4000M it did not detect enemy ships.Think that in an attempt to show how poor the metox was, its nerfed too much as my radar man never reports a contact even though the lines are dancing on the scope.

You are right, it is bugged. Every time there is a change of watch, the next watchman keeps turning the stupid thing back on.

Also, the METOX really was that bad. It was wholly unreliable. Another issue is that the METOX could only detect the older Allied radar. About the time METOX became common, the newer, higher frequency radar sets were being used in ships and planes and METOX could not detect them. There is no bug, other than what I mentioned. METOX just plain sucks.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

You are right, it is bugged. Every time there is a change of watch, the next watchman keeps turning the stupid thing back on.

Also, the METOX really was that bad. It was wholly unreliable. Another issue is that the METOX could only detect the older Allied radar. About the time METOX became common, the newer, higher frequency radar sets were being used in ships and planes and METOX could not detect them. There is no bug, other than what I mentioned. METOX just plain sucks.

Well I think the bug is the watchmen does not report contacts(as I could see them on the scope myself) and they do not register on the map if map contacts are on.I don't mind it being "sucky" as per history but wish my radarman would report contacts when we have them as it would help set up firing solutions(manual targeting) on the large convoys.Wait, METOX was the RWR.The seetakt radar is what I am talking about, the RWR works fine mostly.Although, some planes and ships radars are not detected now, must have the new allied radar sets.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The seetakt radar is what I am talking about...

The FuMO 29 Seetakt was a failed experiment, as well. What made it different is that the array was directly mounted to the conning tower. However, its range was only 7km (which is shorter than visual range in good to unlimited visibility areas) and had a fixed arc of 60 degrees. I would hardly call something with a 300-degree baffle useful. About the only thing this would be good for is detecting navigational hazards in foggy ports.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Hinrich Schwab

The FuMO 29 Seetakt was a failed experiment, as well. What made it different is that the array was directly mounted to the conning tower. However, its range was only 7km (which is shorter than visual range in good to unlimited visibility areas) and had a fixed arc of 60 degrees. I would hardly call something with a 300-degree baffle useful. About the only thing this would be good for is detecting navigational hazards in foggy ports.

Ah got ya.Always amazed me at how amazing the Germans were militarily speaking, they had real shortcomings in some areas that was key to victory.

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Ah got ya.Always amazed me at how amazing the Germans were militarily speaking, they had real shortcomings in some areas that was key to victory.

If you compared the advancements versus shortcomings, the Germans pretty much started the war about a decade too early. Likewise, failure to accept feedback from the front lines and a clear underestimation in the Allied response really hamstrung the effort. As bad as the radar sets were, it was cracking the Enigma that really beat down the Kriegsmarine. It doesn't matter how spiffy a U-boat is if the targets are anywhere except where you are.

[SuperEtendard]

There is a great article about the METOX in wikipedia, the beginnings, the research, the problems that came later... its very very well redacted and helps to understand all the context in wich it was developed..

The bad news is that its in spanish... but you can use google translator hahaha http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metox

i will quote a testimony from the capt of the U-230, it appears on the article, but i will make my best effort to translate it to you

On August 3rd (1943) we recieved a message from the headquarters that caused the greatest impact in our lives since the start of the Allied offensive.

" AT ALL SUBMARINES. ATTENTION. AT ALL SUBMARINES. SUSPEND IMMEDIATELY ALL USE OF METOX. ENEMY CAPABLE OF INTERCEPT IT. MANTAIN RADIO SILENCE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE."

This warning reached the U-230 on time, but it was too late for many of the 100 submarines that had been sunk before this discovery. Suddenly we realized that, in our effort to survive, we had been using an equipment that showed our position so clearly like a full lighted christmas tree. For weeks and months we had been sending the invitations to our own funerals.

"Steel Coffins" U-230 Capt. Herbert Werner

[Hinrich Schwab]

Originally Posted by SuperEtendard

There is a great article about the METOX in wikipedia, the beginnings, the research, the problems that came later... its very very well redacted and helps to understand all the context in wich it was developed..

The bad news is that its in spanish... but you can use google translator hahaha http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metox

I refuse to trust Wikipedia with anything beyond pop culture references. Here is a more reliable open web reference:
http://www.uboataces.com/radar-warning.shtml

i will quote a testimony from the capt of the U-230, it appears on the article, but i will make my best effort to translate it to you

"Steel Coffins" U-230 Capt. Herbert Werner

The reference for your quote is as follows:

Herbert Werner, Iron Coffins: A Personal Account of the German U-Boat Battles of World War II. Second Ed. (New York: Da Capo Press, 2002), 152.

To add to this, Werner had indicated in his account that during Black May, the Biscay Cross was broken most of the time because of constant air attacks. Without the Biscay Cross, the METOX was inoperative and contributed to the survival of U-230's crew.