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Old 08-28-10, 05:46 AM   #1
Werewolf
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Hello everyone,

I was wondering, the new version 2.5xx of steel beasts, will it be purchasable later as a complete version or as an uppgrade only?.....I don´t want to buy the 2.4 now only to have to upgrade later if I can buy the whole pack at once......does anyone know?
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Old 08-28-10, 07:01 AM   #2
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It seems to me the older version is not being sold since one or two weeks, with order having been placed on hold. An order you place now for the full version should be the new version 2.538 indeed.

http://www.esimgames.com/purchase.htm

First item on the order list:

Quote:
Steel Beasts Pro PE
Includes v2.538 DVD, manual, and CodeMeter stick with v2.538 license.
(No upgrade is required!)
ON BACK ORDER. We should have stock in the first week of September.
Good choice of yours. Welcome to the club. You will soon think of it as actually being very cheap, when you realise what you get in return.
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Old 08-28-10, 09:56 AM   #3
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@Skybird

Thanks for the reply I hadn´t noticed that it was the 2.5 version they offered, I´ve focused on buying from the German Okaysoft since I thought that I could get it faster that way, but they only offer the 2.46something version and then I will need to upgrade later.....I´m really interested in that Centauro addition.

Yeah I think SteelBeasts is a good offer too, it´s my impression that you won´t get any more realistic simulation for PC than this......tanksims surely have moved on since the cr.... days of panzer commander . M1TP2 was really good, I still have it, but I got bored of only being able to play from US side and only in MBT´s. This should be awesome

By the way, you wouldn´t happen to be a glider pilot or something with that avatar of yours?
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Old 08-28-10, 10:39 AM   #4
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I used a glider simulator, Condor, and did just one trip in a real one. Flightsims were a hobby of mine, namely FS9 and Falcon. As Condor's manual put it: if flying would be the language of man, soaring would be his poetry.

I seem to remember that the director of eSim said that Okaysoft also is on stop order and will dleiver the new version. However, be advised that it if more expejnsive via Okaysot. There you pay 125 EUROS (currently =159 Dollar). If you order in California, you pay the advertised 125 DOLLARS (currently =98 euros, 4 years ago I payed 88 Euros only...) Usually the envelope slips through customs duty, I have not heared of anyone ever who needed to pay customs. I got two parcels by eSim, 4 years (original release) and one year ago (2.460), and each time I got it after 7-8 days only since ordering. If I were you, I would go with direct ordering at eSim. 27 euros saved are 27 euros saved.
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Old 08-29-10, 06:10 AM   #5
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I used a glider simulator, Condor, and did just one trip in a real one. Flightsims were a hobby of mine, namely FS9 and Falcon. As Condor's manual put it: if flying would be the language of man, soaring would be his poetry.
Ah I see, yeah flying is wonderful, I flew gliders myself, 2 years, it was my dream to take it further and become a professional pilot, but my left ear stopped me

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I seem to remember that the director of eSim said that Okaysoft also is on stop order and will dleiver the new version. However, be advised that it if more expejnsive via Okaysot. There you pay 125 EUROS (currently =159 Dollar). If you order in California, you pay the advertised 125 DOLLARS (currently =98 euros, 4 years ago I payed 88 Euros only...) Usually the envelope slips through customs duty, I have not heared of anyone ever who needed to pay customs. I got two parcels by eSim, 4 years (original release) and one year ago (2.460), and each time I got it after 7-8 days only since ordering. If I were you, I would go with direct ordering at eSim. 27 euros saved are 27 euros saved.
Well, last time I checked at Okaysoft they offered the 2.46 version and that was only a few days ago. I didn´t realize that they were that much more expensive in any way it´s better to wait for the full new version, probably the delivery time is almost the same and as you say 27 euros saved is 27 euros saved. I´ll just have to lean back and wait . By the way, are there any tools out there for modding the game? I´ve seen a lot of stuff about modified skins etc.
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Old 08-29-10, 12:57 PM   #6
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Skins and some sounds can be modded, not more. They keep vehicle modding and changing the technical variables unavailable fromt he public, which makes perfect sense. Most ordinary people simply lack the knowledge and do not have the data to realistically construct new vehicles - having a realistically looking model, is one thing, equipping it with correct armour values and ballistics is something very different, and for these latter points you need to have expert and insider knowledge, or better: experience with the real stuff. Mind you, this sim is not primarily meant to adress the game market's desires, but the military customers decide (and pay for) what it looks like - by their orders of features. eSim provides the tools that are needed to make maps, which are made of two packs, height-maps (the wireframe model), and then texturing it and plastering it with objects. But that is advanced stuff and not many care for it. Better you check out what you already get, it is very plenty, the sim has many HUUUGE maps, and each of them can be covered with a new season and regional scheme easily.

But the good news is, that the mission editor is fantastic. It allows you to do very sophisticated designs, if you put some care and logic into it, nevertheless is easy to handle. I was busy with the also very good editors for Flashpoint and ArmA as well as Sub Command. All these editors also are very good and ergonomically designed, but to me SBP's editor beats them all. Also, you already learn it by learning to handle the mission planning tool - both are very much identical.

My guess is you will hold your hard copy in 2, maybe in 3 weeks in your hands.
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Old 08-30-10, 04:54 AM   #7
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Skins and some sounds can be modded, not more.
That was what I was referring to

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Most ordinary people simply lack the knowledge and do not have the data to realistically construct new vehicles - having a realistically looking model, is one thing, equipping it with correct armour values and ballistics is something very different,
Exactly!

Quote:
Mind you, this sim is not primarily meant to adress the game market's desires
And that is exactly why I "fell" for this sim immediately Realism! No more sacrifice of realism because of arcade shoot'em up crap, no idiotic game behaviour, no more historic limitations etc. etc. ....only as much realism and modern amoured combat as possible for a PC that's all I ask for.


Quote:
eSim provides the tools that are needed to make maps, which are made of two packs, height-maps (the wireframe model), and then texturing it and plastering it with objects. But that is advanced stuff and not many care for it. Better you check out what you already get, it is very plenty, the sim has many HUUUGE maps, and each of them can be covered with a new season and regional scheme easily.
That sounds excellent to me .

The only damn thing are those 2-3 weeks hehe
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Old 08-30-10, 05:48 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Werewolf View Post
no idiotic game behaviour,
Well, sometimes the AI messes things up, too, like any AI. The point is it does so rarely only. The autonomous micromanouvering works very well, and the formation manouvering and tactical behaviour depends on the mission designer.

Just one advise, one of the few hniggles with SBP is that the AI does not reliably detect small water obstacles like small ponds of for example 2-3m size with steep walls. It tends to ignore them and get stuck. If this happens to you, ask again, I then tell you the possible remedies. Major rivers, bridging operaitons and using road bridges works well, though. Battle positions very near to rivers also is a critical issue, if the unit autonomously manouvers to adopt to enemy movement, it can sometimes retreat backwards into the river, and get stuck.

It is very rare, and you can avoid it by adapting your plan or choose your mission map accordingly. the map theme can also be easily edited to get rid of the water, locally, or on all the map. So although it may sound like a big issue, it is not. It is just annoying when it happens.

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no more historic limitations etc. etc. ....only as much realism and modern amoured combat as possible for a PC that's all I ask for.
Not only modern. You now can set up original early cold war scenarios as well, the needed vehicles are there now. You can also tune the sim to reflect WWII-technology only, like I described in the SBP resources sticky.

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That sounds excellent to me .
Actually many maps are several times bigger than the maximum area you can have in a mission (some 400 square-km, if I recall correctly, which is big enough for platoon, company and batallion action, most used mission maps are considerably smaller). So you can use several different parts of one map to use for various missions. You can also change the season and geograhic scheme of any given map: it then has the same heightmap, but different architecture, vegetation, desert, woodland or snow schemes, etc.
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Old 08-30-10, 01:23 PM   #9
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reading carefully all the replies here and now I really want to buy this game but have just two questions: can you control the T-55 or T-72? and if you can, do they have "cockpits"?

for me the game will cost 125 x 4 = 500 in my money (those things of global economy... ) and really want to try those tanks...

thanks!
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Old 08-30-10, 02:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Fercyful View Post
reading carefully all the replies here and now I really want to buy this game but have just two questions: can you control the T-55 or T-72? and if you can, do they have "cockpits"?

for me the game will cost 125 x 4 = 500 in my money (those things of global economy... ) and really want to try those tanks...

thanks!
They are non-crewable. That means they can be used by mission designer for both Blue and Red, and player can move them via planning, attaching movement commands to them, or via "remote control" from external view, that way handling their movement, but all onboard management and firing is done by the AI.

The playable T-72 is in high demand by players.Unfortunately, players are not what found esim's income, and their military customers have little use and thus no demand for a playable T-72. for them it is not part of their inventory (Fins being the exceptuion), but just a "target". It is sufficient if realistic means are needed to destroy it, and if it autonomously defends by by realsitic means.

SBP has four versions of the T-72, though, the M, M1, B and M4CZ versions. The latter two are a very different class than the T-72 that got destroyed in Iraq '91 and'03 in so huge masses. Those were downgraded, inferior export versions of early T-72-types.

eSim indicated that due to the shift in real policies, their customers shift orientation as well, and equipement for low intensity and assymmetrical wars becomes higher in demand. That's why we see an increasing ammount of fully modelled IFVs as well as armoured trucks, like the Bushmaster, the Eagle-IV, various APCs and IFVs and the Lemur RWS. Such things become more important than heavy tanks for the real military, and SBP's future developements will likely reflect that.

Which means that sooner or later they must start to improve the basic-at-best infantry aspect of the sim.

I had changed a scenario yesterday, playing in Leopard-1A5DKs and having assistance by M-60A3s (boy, these things are slow...), versus T-55s and T-62. Was a complete new ballgame. It also makes you marvel at what fantastic tank in its time the Leo-1 has been. Oh, and the battle with old ammo versus old armour was very, very lethal. Much more than modern ammo versus modern armour. From that experience the Germans seem to have been right to prioritize speed and mobility in the Leo-1. None of these four tanks is armoured sufficiently to give it good survival chances when being hit. seen that way you do not really miss anything with the T-55 not being crewable. Or do you enjoy getting shot up all the time? Fighting in a T-55 versus Leo-1s is not fun...

If editing such a mission for having no laser and thermals included, then it really becomes difficult.
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Old 08-30-10, 02:22 PM   #11
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wow Skybird! thanks for the detailed answer.

Now I undertand why they are non-crewable... Hope the demand for the T-72 finally make it in the game...

Quote:
seen that way you do not really miss anything with the T-55 not being crewable. Or do you enjoy getting shot up all the time?
thinking in that way better stay away of the T-55!

but... I still want the T-72

I think I will be happy playing with the Leopard. really enjoy reading your answer.

vielen dank!
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Old 08-30-10, 04:50 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Fercyful View Post
but... I still want the T-72
That want many. Though I am not one of them, the T72 is no object of interest for me to play with.

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I think I will be happy playing with the Leopard. really enjoy reading your answer.

vielen dank!
Schon gut. The Leopards are nice to play with, the three latest versions all with full 3D cockpits that mostly are similiar but nevertheless have all their unique features. Full 3D interior also for the CV-9035, CV9040 B and C, the Pizarro, and the Centauro, also the control console for the Lemur system. M1 and M2 also have modelled 3D cockpits, but they are not interactive and not as detailed. All other crewable vehicles just offer direct jump to the different stations optical sensors and weapons, like in SB Legacy (=SB1 ten years ago). The US army is no customer of SBP. I think no army ever has demanded 3D cockpits, I think esim does exclusively for the gaming market: the eye candy factor.
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Old 08-31-10, 06:01 AM   #13
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Just one advise, one of the few hniggles with SBP is that the AI does not reliably detect small water obstacles like small ponds of for example 2-3m size with steep walls. It tends to ignore them and get stuck. If this happens to you, ask again, I then tell you the possible remedies. Major rivers, bridging operaitons and using road bridges works well, though. Battle positions very near to rivers also is a critical issue, if the unit autonomously manouvers to adopt to enemy movement, it can sometimes retreat backwards into the river, and get stuck.
Well, in the tanksims that I have had crossing water wasn't even possible and if so the game didn't have the brain to simulate a tank being stock so for me this sounds like a "luxury problem" sort of speak . But thanks, I will certainly ask for advice right now the biggest problem is that I don't even have the game yet haha and I get more and more keen to own the more you write about it yum yum

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Not only modern. You now can set up original early cold war scenarios as well, the needed vehicles are there now. You can also tune the sim to reflect WWII-technology only, like I described in the SBP resources sticky.
Ah I see, so you can actually switch modern technology on and off? well I'm mostly interested in modern amored warfare.

As for the T72 and T55 .... well I would like to try, but actually I would rather like to see more focus on non US equipment like the French for example and their post WWII amored vehicles and tactics, the AMX series and their heavy use of fast armored cars / tank destroyers like the ebr75 and amx10rc. In that way I am quite satisfied with esim's shift of focus on the more "light combatants", I think the addition of the Centauro is great.

By the way speaking of T72 and 55's, have you read about the upgrades a lot of these tanks are going through now?

Quote:
Actually many maps are several times bigger than the maximum area you can have in a mission (some 400 square-km, if I recall correctly, which is big enough for platoon, company and batallion action, most used mission maps are considerably smaller). So you can use several different parts of one map to use for various missions. You can also change the season and geograhic scheme of any given map: it then has the same heightmap, but different architecture, vegetation, desert, woodland or snow schemes, etc.
Does that mean that the player will never be able to make use of the whole 400 sqaure km map or that it's just surplus to requirements? By the way, can you link scenarios together? I take it that the mission generator is so complex that one doesn't even have to......but I've seen a site where they have a lot of online campaigns going on and I was just wondering if campaigns are possible in single player too?

And as Fercyful says your detailed answers are really a pleasure to read, thanks
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Old 08-31-10, 06:03 AM   #14
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@skybird:

Oh by the way, the vehicles that you mention which are there for making a cold war scenario, are they part of an upgrade by esim?
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Old 08-31-10, 06:49 AM   #15
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Ah I see, so you can actually switch modern technology on and off? well I'm mostly interested in modern amored warfare.
The tanks are modelled with plenty of technical systems matching their originals, and also a very diverse layout of individual armour plates on different parts of the hull, like in real life. A mission designer can tick on and off any of these subsystems to simulate damaged tanks 8from an earlier battle, for example). check the SBP sticky resources. The mods have thorwn much things together now, but after the info-post and some comments there is a long illustrated essay of mine that explkains in detail and with detailed pictures of stations and menues how to tune the sim to fight like in WWII.

Edit:
forget it, the ressources thread slowly turns into a mess, I do not understand what the mods are doing there, throwing five pages of different content together.
Here it is:
part 1 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...3&postcount=53

part 2 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...5&postcount=54

part 3 http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...6&postcount=55

Quote:
As for the T72 and T55 .... well I would like to try, but actually I would rather like to see more focus on non US equipment like the French for example and their post WWII amored vehicles and tactics, the AMX series and their heavy use of fast armored cars / tank destroyers like the ebr75 and amx10rc. In that way I am quite satisfied with esim's shift of focus on the more "light combatants", I think the addition of the Centauro is great.
In fact many poeple complain that there is so little playable US gear. That simply is that the abrams does not sell well, but the Leopard does, and also, beside the Abrams, there is no other US MBT in use. . Of eSim'S military customers, only one or two nations operate Abrams (Australia, Canada), all others decided for the Leopard. That'S why you have 2 different Leopard-1 and 4 different Leopard-2, but until the recent upgrade just one Abrams (m1A1HA). not before just now they included the old M1 with the 105mm as well, because the cockpit is pretty much the same, and the non-crewable M1A2SEP. The major line of IFVs, crewable, are Swedish ones (CV-series, 3 types plus FO), plus the Pizarro. The Bradley is there, too, though. And the range of various (AS)LAV and M113-type of vehicles.

Be advised that the same ammo round can be rated with different effectiveness depending on the gun from which it is fired. That'S with regard to the US 105mm, the German L44 120mm that also is build in licence for the Abrams now, and the new German L55 gun with longer barrel. the latest german Tungsten ammo is almost on par with the third generation US-DU-round when fired from the L44, but the same Tungsten round fired from the L55 is rated with an almost 10% supoeriority over the US-DU round from an L44. Ammo type is not be underestimated in SBP.

Quote:
By the way speaking of T72 and 55's, have you read about the upgrades a lot of these tanks are going through now?
Pardon?

Edit:
now, ten hours later or so, I understand the question, it took me some time, sorry. On the T-55 I only know that it is the most-built tank ever, with almost 90-100 thousand pieces having left factory. It is still folund in 3rd world countires, that'S why maybe it was wanted as an OpFor unit by customers. The T-72 I read about what popular sites have to say on it. The modelled M and M1 versions are the versions you saw not stopping to pop up in both gulf wars, cheap export versions which were inferior to the versions of their times the Soviets kept for themselves, armour and ammo were weaker, sensors varied, used material and construction quality were not as good as for internal Soviet demand. The B version is new in SBP now, a tough bugger with a powerful punch and AT-missiles. The M4 seems to be the best of the four modelled versions, a Czech versio0n upgrade with Wetsern systems, and the only T-72 in the game with thermal displays (a major force-multiplier). But it is not equipped with AT-missiles.It also is quite fast. The t-55 and T-62 as well as the M60 are very slow, though, never forget that. Compared to them, the Leo-1 is a sportscar and shows what a totally superior tank it was - in its timeframe before the T-72 and Leo-2 appeared. When the T-72 appeared, it was high time for the M1 and Leo-2. especially the M60 i would not have put my mkoney on, when facing a detemrined attack by T-72. They were faster, smaller, and more powerful in punch. The M60's thermals maybe wpould have partiually compensated this, not equalling chances. the Leo-1 probably would have had better chances, due to its better manouverability over the M60.

Many people do not know that the later T-90 - is a later version of the T-72, they chnaged the name for marketing reason after the T-72 expoert models got such a beating in the gulf wars. The T-90 is closer to the T-72 than to the turbine-run T-80.

Quote:
Does that mean that the player will never be able to make use of the whole 400 sqaure km map or that it's just surplus to requirements? By the way, can you link scenarios together? I take it that the mission generator is so complex that one doesn't even have to......but I've seen a site where they have a lot of online campaigns going on and I was just wondering if campaigns are possible in single player too?
The biggest scenario map possible is I think around 400 km2, but that map can be just a snippet of the actual full map the mission designer cut it out from. I think I saw full maps of 70x70 km, something in that range, but you cannot use all that in one mission - and it would nto make any sense, too. SBP focusses on platoon and company level, and althnough batallion also is possible, you hardy need maps that are outside a size range of for example from 5x5 up to maybe 10x15 km. Do not underestimate "small" missions. Many mission designs exel right in the "small" segment, because that is what SBP originally was intended for in the main: platoon simulation.

No dynamic campaigns. If you want a storyline of missions, you can help that a bit by adding destroyed vehciles into the landscape at the likely hotpsots of earlier battles. But SBP has no special interest in telling storylines. I wouldnot bother for it - the batttle ou already do will keep you busy. And if you are as crazy as I am, you can set up a bigger battle in SP and play thatone for hours. Some designers try to simulaereal milizary excercises and problems, and they do that well. For my own pourposes, I set up missions that fit my personal needs and are optimised for my way of enjoying the sim best. Almost everything is possible in a mission design, you even can tune the sim so that it becomes an aracde action shooter, almost: superior tanks with latest ammo against waves of inferor tanks with 30 years old ammo.

Quote:
And as Fercyful says your detailed answers are really a pleasure to read, thanks
I am simply convinced of this sim, and i am not alone with that attitude. In the 4 years since SBPPE was released, I read only of two guys who complained about the sim and sold it. Actually more people sold it - but over reasons of lacking time to play it. You will find it difficult to find a second hand copy. sometimes ther eis one at ebay, but only very rarely - people tend to not wanting to separate with SBP again once they found out what thy got. It is a true and full quality product in almost every regard, I only compare Falcon 4 to it. In my avatar you can see that originally i have been a flightsim buff - but SBP changed that. Today, of all cockpits sims I knew over the years, I play SBP almost exclusively, the few other games are strategy games.

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@skybird:

Oh by the way, the vehicles that you mention which are there for making a cold war scenario, are they part of an upgrade by esim?

For owners of recent versions of Steelbeasts: upgrade. For new customer: the full retail version to be sold from September on includes that upgrade.

The version to watch out for, the new one, the standard, the only one there is, the dearly beloved: v2.538.

It is no "patch" that gets installed over installations of existing older versions. Old version must be fully deinstalled, the new one is a complete new installation, including all the sim's content and files.

Difference between the upgrade and the full package: the files you get are the same in both cases, but upgraders just buy a new licence for the codemeter USB dongle that they have gotten with their older versions that they bought. The files they can download and install for free - but not run them without upgrading that license, that is what they pay for: a new license for their existing dongle, it gets loaded onto it and then the sim runs again. New customers install exactly the same files, but for their money also get the USB dongle with that new license already on it, the printed manual for version 2.460, and the CD.

Upgraders optionally can chose to buy download and CD. But there is not really a point in it. The CD includes six videos five of which are already available in public (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...2&postcount=10), and more photos for the credits screen when you quit. If oyu have these photos already from an earlier version, you can put them into that new folder. Spending an additonal 7 dollars for CD upgrade really has no point, imo. the installation files are setb up for download for free. Even the technical director of eSim himself says it is pretty much pointless. But if somebody wants to spend more money, they will not stop him from doing so. Upgrade price currently is 25 dollars without CD option. Considering the sioze of the content, that is cheap, really cheap.

It'S the same program package people need, no matter whether they upgrade or buy the full version for the first time. The difference only lies in upgrading the dongle license, or getting a complete new dongle plus printed manual.

It seems to have quite weired effects if peope just install over old versions, or try two separate installations. So again: any old version of SBP must be fully deinstalled, and the new version then installed as the only one being used.

Full vehicle list and anything else one needs to know in the SBP resources sticky.

P.S. I forget to mention in the water part of comment, that amphibic vehicles can swim over lakes and rivers, but they need to have smooth riverbanks/beaches to roll into the water and out, else they get stuck. set up a naval battle between BMP cruisers, if you want. Bridgelayers can also bridge tank obstacles and minefields. Oooh - there was one limitation on mines or obstacles, I do not remember exactly right now, I think the steel beams are not to be bridged, but the dragon teeth.
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