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Old 06-27-17, 11:20 AM   #16
Wiz33
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
It'd be an interesting twist, but it'd really slow things down.

You'd fire your four tubes and then evade all counterattacks and disappear for 15-30 minutes up to a whole hour to launch another all-out strike.

Out of curiosity, why does it take that long? Aren't there automatic (ish) loading mechanisms to get torpedoes from the magazine and into the tube? I suppose the torps are pretty damn well secured within the former.
It's not that long, close the tube door, pump out water (probably slowly to reduce noise), check and clean the tube for any debris that was trapped, remove the old wire spool and any other electronics connections. load new weapon (which won't be that fast given the 3500lbs weight). re-attached new wire spool/electronics. close torp door and given that any weapon handling is probably double or triple checked. That's totally reason. They may speed it up in an emergency but given that anything that has to do with watertight integrity is of the highest priority on a sub. 15 minutes under combat condition still sound reasonable.
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Old 06-27-17, 02:14 PM   #17
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Ok, everyone needs to take a step back and forget anything you have heard or read about or pictures you have seen regarding Torpedo loading before 1970..

To answer the first question, yes, port and stbd. Not enough room to do both upper and lower tubes efficiently together.

See pic..



This is a fourth flight 688 (688i) and the two tubs on the left are tubes two and four. You can see that it is faster to do one each on each side simultaneously.

All torpedo tube loading is 'powered'. The boats do have a block and tackle for this purpose but it is the 'emergency handling gear'. If you loose hydraulics then you use this... If you have lost hydraulics, then you are in a WORLD of hurt...

Once you get the weapon into position in front of the tube, then you pivot the tray to align it with the tube (cant). Attach the loading pole to the aft end of the weapon, the pop all for straps that hold the weapon to the dollies. Then set the pivot tray to the depth own ship is currently at.. (important).
Then start ramming the weapon into the tube.... slowly.. After the weapon is fully loaded, the lock the weapon into the tube. Remove loading pole, and finish the loading process... cables/wires etc.. which I will not go into here.



In the first picture that was posted yes, you have to remove the upper level and middle level decks. That is one of the reasons I stated that it takes two or three hours of setup before you can ship the first weapon. Usually it takes all day.....
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Old 06-27-17, 02:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Barkhorn1x View Post
That article sounds crazy as the 688 and 688i were improvements on earlier classes but, boy, sure doesn't sound like it! Nuts to think that you have to partially take the deck apart to reload. That simply makes no sense. And the pics above point to a more efficient/automated system.

I'd like to hear from some former crew mates like Jive Turkey for confirmation here.
So, how would YOU get these 3500lbs weapons into a tube only 33ft in diameter and packed with equipment?

Of course something is going to have to be removed to allow access. The decks are the easy things.. The upper level deck is also where the weapons skid pieces are stowed.

The weapons skid sits topside, bolted to the deck.

The middle level deck is actually a hydraulically powered lifting deck that pivots and locks into place allowing the weapon to ether raise to the topside deck skid or lower from the deck skid into the rails on the middle level deck. Once secured in place, the locks are disengaged and the middle level deck lowers (on its pivot point) which lowers the weapon into the room to site on the four dollies in the original picture. Then it is strapped down.

This was us in Guam:


The baseplate is bolted to the deck. The Welmet is the main structure attached to the baseplate. Side rails, the four 'dog ears' and the two legs.
All these are disassembled and stowed below.

Hydraulic powered 'rammer chains' on the middle level deck raise the weapon into the deck skid or lower the weapon into the room.

In the original picture in the first part of the thread, you can see the middle level deck in the raised position.
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Old 06-27-17, 03:14 PM   #19
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I think the problem is that the article is written in a such way, that it can be interpreted that you must remove deck floors to reload torpedoes into the tube (from the rack).
I think it's reasonable to assume you need to do this to load all torpedoes into their storage area on sub.

I also found this video:


I know it's a different sub, but the torpedo is the same and at least the ramming process seems similar to what shipkiller1 has said.
In this video the process takes 1.5 minutes but you can clearly see how much has been cut out.
If you add all the necessary wiring then suddenly 15 minutes doesn't seem that much.

It also just appeared to me, that it seems like the upper tubes can be loaded only with the torpedoes from the upper rails. Otherwise it would increase load times even more.

Too bad we can't implement realistic reloads (reloading 1 port and 1 starboard torpedo at a time) without the help from the devs. But we can modify the reload times to somehow simulate the same effect (like setting reload times to 7.5 minutes for a single tube).
I think I'm gonna play with those things for my mod
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Old 06-27-17, 03:26 PM   #20
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OK. Think we are talking past each other. That linked article seems to be referencing magazine (in port) replenishment procedures - as does some of the pictures. So of course that's going to be a rather lengthy and involved process.

What the OP asked is how long does it take to reload tubes between shots (on patrol). And the consensus appears to be 15 mins. which means the game timeframe is very generous.
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Old 06-27-17, 04:35 PM   #21
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None of this available footage shows combat conditions, though. Compare it to reloading battleship guns. There is good footage online that shows the USS Missiouri firing and reloading her guns from the 80's:



See how it takes about a minute to load the gun, yet during wartime trials the rate of fire per gun was 2 per minute, or 30 seconds.

Now these torpedo videos typically show exercises or weapon trials. In combat conditions where the life of every man on the boat is on the line, reloading would most likely be much faster.
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Old 06-27-17, 04:47 PM   #22
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Loading a torpedo tube with a torpedo, combat conditions, peace time, whatever, takes 15 minutes...

There is a lot that has to happen to the unit.

Some of the things that would seem to be very quick, is slowed down because you have to take your time and be QUIET about it. You drop a 85lb dolly on the deck would produce a rather large detectable transient.

One transient, is all it would take to bring your adversary's attention to that part of the ocean, raising his NRD and now you are counter detected.
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Old 06-27-17, 04:49 PM   #23
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That may be true, but even if they can do it twice as fast in a wartime situation that still means about 7 minute per torpedo (or pair), not 45 seconds (as is in current realistic settings).

EDIT.
So, shipkiller1, is it safe to assume that for example in a knife fight situation, where both subs are actively pinging each other the captain could give orders to load torpedoes as fast as possible without taking care of the sound it makes. Or are hydraulics set in such a way that they can only operate at a certain speed?
I'm asking just out of curiosity because I doubt there's even enough incentive to place such a mechanic in the game.
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Old 06-27-17, 05:36 PM   #24
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Research from first hand sources indicated about 1:30 to 2 minutes to be a reasonable figure for loading a torpedo into the tube on a 637 sub. The 45 seconds comes from the game originally being compressed into a half-scale environment where the flow of time becomes about 2x realtime.

We know that the Novembers could reload the entire nest of 8 tubes in about 15 minutes, which works out to slightly under 2 minutes per tube. Type XXI could reload its 6 tubes in 10 minutes, which is comparable performance using power-loading equipment. This performance is also in line with every other sim, from Fast Attack through DW.
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Old 06-27-17, 05:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Julhelm View Post
In combat conditions where the life of every man on the boat is on the line, reloading would most likely be much faster.
This is romantic gobbly gook. Sorry to be blunt about it.

You train like you will fight, and you fight like you train.
Submarines are a procedure oriented vessels, more so than any surface craft.
You have a procedure for almost everything, and you better have the book out when you are doing something. If something goes wrong and you did not have the procedure out and/or you were not following said procedure eg: One step is to check to make sure the A-cable (to the weapon) has an O-ring attached and is greased properly and is fully seated into the breach door. You bypass this step because '****, its always correct' but the O-ring has rolled or has a cut in it, and the cable floods out when you flood down and power the weapon up, so now you have to back haul the weapon and replace the A-cable or this little fupa' damages the weapon..... and the Approach Officer needs that weapon.....

When the stress level rises, you always fall back to how you were trained. That is why we, as supervisors (either senior enlisted or officers), always stress using the procedure, even if you have performed it a thousand times. In high stress levels, you may forget or overlook something because you were in a hurry, and in the very complex world of the submarine this may kill you.

Getting rid of this 'civilian complacency', learning to check and recheck is the hardest thing to teach and drill into the heads of new crew members so it becomes second nature.

Yes, in a war time environment, you 'might' shave off a couple of minutes but you better be really SURE. This will come down to each individual loading team on each submarine.
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Old 06-27-17, 05:50 PM   #26
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Cripes what a load of confusion.

The 12 hours is an in port thing when the weapons have to be slid through a hatch in the hull, one can imagine some manual work and setting up the ramp is involved, you can't manhandle these things, a MK48 weighs over 1.5 tonnes and is hardly the right shape to try and grab hold of. Assuming you have to reload a full load of weapons, it must take hours, maybe even a whole day or something, each weapon being craned over the hull individually.

Reloading a single tube, given that it is done by mechanical means, I bet takes a few minutes at most.
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Old 06-27-17, 05:54 PM   #27
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So the time to reload a tube is now back to WW2 levels where they used manual equipment?

Every available reference literature, from Friedman to Polmar give the same figures that work out to about 2 minutes to reload a tube. Roughly the same figure was relayed to me by a first hand source, whose information I tend to trust.
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Old 06-27-17, 06:25 PM   #28
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Look, I am just telling you reality. Polmar was a researcher and journalist and never had to do this.

Personally, I do not think the weapon reload times need to be changed. I don't find that a short (with respect to reality) reload time a big deal.
They keep the balance and flow of what you are trying to do high.

If you increase the reload times too much, then the non-hardcore sub-sim gamer will not find the game fun and not recommend it to their friends.. and that is the end game here.

You could put the variable in one of the config files so the hard core guys can change it.

I am a realism nut, but I find the game highly entertaining, and I have recommended it to the guys in the office. We are all retired submarine Fire Control Chiefs (E7's and E8's). We are the tech reps and engineers that have to fly to where ever to fix the boat when it is broke, which means we spend a lot of time overseas. Scotland is my favorite place to go....
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Old 06-27-17, 06:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shipkiller1 View Post
.... Scotland is my favorite place to go....
Want to do a swap then ??
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That word is England
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Old 06-27-17, 06:38 PM   #30
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Want to do a swap then ??
Lido's fish and chips in Helensburgh...
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