Is it me or the game is a little bit too easy?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Well, fortunately for my sanity, I have reacquired the quote.

Originally Posted by P.148 Cold War Submarines

Locating the BQQ-2 in the bow placed it in an optimum search location ... required that the 21-inch ... be moved further aft and angled outboard at approximately 15 degrees .... The Bureau of Ships was concerned that firing at an angle would limit the speed at which a submarine could launch torpedoes, but the feasibility of angled launch was demonstrated to a speed of 18 knots.

and here's one more from the 2014 Submarine Torpedo Tactics: An American History

Originally Posted by P.152

Considerable tests were run to determine the maximum speed that Sturgeon could make when firing torpedoes from the canted tubes. The concern stemmed from the fear that a torpedo leaving the tube would encounter strong lateral pressure on the forward part of the torpedo that might produce a twisting motion with a resulting hang-up in the tube. It was found that submarine speeds up to 18 knots would not interrupt a smooth torpedo departure.

For the Russian side, I think every account of the 671 (Victor) will include some reference to this affair, such as this:
http://www.deepstorm.ru/DeepStorm.fi...s/671/list.htm
or https://web.archive.org/web/20050405...80/sub.php?671
and I've also attached a JPEG from a book (unfortunately, Andrei V Polutov only seems to write for Japan, not the United States so the text is in Japanese, but all you really need to read is the "11" near the top of the right hand page).

So, at the very least, this idea and issue is indeed fairly well-sourced.

As an aside a much bigger game play issue to me is the breaking of torpedo wires. I know for instance the MK48 is set to 10% chance, but I routinely can fire 4, at 5 kts level bubble and rudder, and have one wire survive launch. Even then it's rare for it to last anything close to the full run of the fish. I'm curious if there's something a bit off with the their probability generator or if I just have REALLY bad luck with torpedo wires. I even tried an experiment of setting the wire break chance to 1% with the same result.

Your experiences match mine. I've sadly given up on all attacks that assume the Mark 48 can be wire-guided.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Your experiences match mine. I've sadly given up on all attacks that assume the Mark 48 can be wire-guided.

Are you sure you're facing the direction you're firing?
In my playthrough I found that most causes for wire-breaks were not speed, or even sharp manoeuvres but the angle to torpedo.
If you don't know, the torpedo wire will break, if your angle to torpedo is greater than 30 degrees on each side.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Are you sure you're facing the direction you're firing?
In my playthrough I found that most causes for wire-breaks were not speed, or even sharp manoeuvres but the angle to torpedo.
If you don't know, the torpedo wire will break, if your angle to torpedo is greater than 30 degrees on each side.

Yes. I tend to leave just enough angle (~10 degrees AOB) for the towed sonar to function. And I'm either stopped or at 5 knots. I've done everything I know to make things easy for the wire.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Yes. I tend to leave just enough angle (~10 degrees AOB) for the towed sonar to function. And I'm either stopped or at 5 knots. I've done everything I know to make things easy for the wire.

That's really strange. I've just had a scenario in which I wire-guided 2 torpedoes for over 15 KYDS without problems. And that's common situation for me. Even at 10 knots.

[shipkiller1]

Well, I can only relate my own experiences. I served on three different boats from 1980 to 2004.

USS Phoenix SSN-702
USS Finback SSN-670
USS Oklahoma City SSN-723

I spent 75% of my time up in 'Indian Country'.

Just remember, do not just take the word you read in a book about US Submarine operations as gospel. There is a lot of disinformation in there, some it old and out of date and some is just plain wrong.
I read Sontags book. I found it.... amusing...

Book information is one thing but in all actuality, there is no operational 'warning, caution or note' that says what your maximum speed should be when launching a torpedo. I've done it at all speeds including flank.

With regards to the wire, there are several reasons, from tube construction to weapon functions to explain why I say the wire breaks way to much. But hey, its just a game.

One thing I was confused by was your reference of AOB. In the TMA world, AOB is always referenced from the contact, not the bearing from own ship (OS) to the contact.

[captinjoehenry]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Well, I can only relate my own experiences. I served on three different boats from 1980 to 2004.

USS Phoenix SSN-702
USS Finback SSN-670
USS Oklahoma City SSN-723

I spent 75% of my time up in 'Indian Country'.

Just remember, do not just take the word you read in a book about US Submarine operations as gospel. There is a lot of disinformation in there, some it old and out of date and some is just plain wrong.
I read Sontags book. I found it.... amusing...

Book information is one thing but in all actuality, there is no operational 'warning, caution or note' that says what your maximum speed should be when launching a torpedo. I've done it at all speeds including flank.

With regards to the wire, there are several reasons, from tube construction to weapon functions to explain why I say the wire breaks way to much. But hey, its just a game.

One thing I was confused by was your reference of AOB. In the TMA world, AOB is always referenced from the contact, not the bearing from own ship (OS) to the contact.

Hmm well that sounds like a convincing reason to allow full speed torp launches. I just wish you had some sort of physical or referable proof about the torp launch limits. Still I am not hugely surprised to hear it is possible in the real world. I do hope it is changed in game as well.

[jenrick]

I can certainly see launch speed being an issue back in the infancy of off angle tubes. With plenty of testing need to verify that it was in fact feasible at all speeds. Ironically the Skipjack as modeled in game appears to be the initial design without a spherical array in the way as all 6 tubes are on the bow. So regardless of if there is a concern the Skipjack shouldn't have any issues.

-Jenrick

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

I spent 75% of my time up in 'Indian Country'.

Wow, that's very high. You are saying out of every 365 days, you spend over 270 of them not only at sea, but right up in an operational area? What happened to training, maintenance, crew rest, transit times ... etc?

Originally Posted by jenrick

Ironically the Skipjack as modeled in game appears to be the initial design without a spherical array in the way as all 6 tubes are on the bow. So regardless of if there is a concern the Skipjack shouldn't have any issues. -Jenrick

I agree. Besides, gamewise, it'll give players a real reason (that's not masochism or machoism) to try a Skipjack rather than a 688.

[shipkiller1]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Wow, that's very high. You are saying out of every 365 days, you spend over 270 of them not only at sea, but right up in an operational area? What happened to training, maintenance, crew rest, transit times ... etc?

Deployed time...

There were three years straight where we spent 300 days at sea each year....

Another note:

If you raise the ESM mast, you should get a bearing from each ESM contact.

[jenrick]

I agree. Besides, gamewise, it'll give players a real reason (that's not masochism or machoism) to try a Skipjack rather than a 688.

I actually really like the Skipjack in '68 over the other boats. I've made a few posts about tactics, that cover why. However in the '80's campaign the Skipjack should have been retrofitted the AN-BQQ-5 (I think it was) spherical array and now should have the angled tube issues.

-Jenrick

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Deployed time...

There were three years straight where we spent 300 days at sea each year....

Another note:

If you raise the ESM mast, you should get a bearing from each ESM contact.

The game Help section says that the scope displays ESM strength and the ESM mast displays strength and a purple bearing line on the map.

As for wire breaking and jammed tubes when fired at flank speed, my assumption is those are gameplay elements to force the player make choices and live with the results. For example, say I am pointing at the target, and I have a wire guided torp headed to my high sol contact... and I get an incoming torpedo. Do I order flank speed to start clearing datum and risk breaking the wire and losing my target? I have to make a choice. And however realistic these elements are, they sorta make physical sense in our world, so it seems ok to model this in a game. It does make the game more interesting.

Originally Posted by jenrick

As an aside a much bigger game play issue to me is the breaking of torpedo wires. I know for instance the MK48 is set to 10% chance, but I routinely can fire 4, at 5 kts level bubble and rudder, and have one wire survive launch. Even then it's rare for it to last anything close to the full run of the fish. I'm curious if there's something a bit off with the their probability generator or if I just have REALLY bad luck with torpedo wires. I even tried an experiment of setting the wire break chance to 1% with the same result.


-Jenrick

Same here. I would prefer the game model wire breakage as rare when I am doing everything right, same 10% as you suggested.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by jenrick

I actually really like the Skipjack in '68 over the other boats. I've made a few posts about tactics, that cover why. However in the '80's campaign the Skipjack should have been retrofitted the AN-BQQ-5 (I think it was) spherical array and now should have the angled tube issues.

-Jenrick

I too like the Skipjack (really its about the only thing that I drive) but even as far back as 1968 it was regarded as a "second-line" boat. For its time it had amazing speed and maneuverability, its sonar (BQS-4 active and BQR-2 passive in the chin position) could be seen as "general purpose" at best even for when it was introduced in the late 50s.

For various reasons the Skipjacks never received many upgrades until they were retired in the late 80s and early 90s (there was talk of a sonar upgrade which had funding pulled, many of the boomers had a similar sonar system and which was eventually upgraded to BQR-21 which featured digital processing but was still short of what the spherical arrays could do). Small size was an issue. Another problem is that they were the last boats built without isolation mounts for machinery, so even if they had of received better sonar or newer fire control systems which would have enabled them to fire missiles, they'd still be at a disadvantage compared to newer boats.

As hard as it can be to play as the Skipjack, I shudder to think how a Skate class would fare, even in 1968! This only makes the idea of old one off boats like Halibut and Seawolf going on sneaky special ops even scarier.

This kind of brings up another point. I think they may already have aspects of this but I would assume, weather war came in 68 or 84, that they wouldn't treat all boats as equal and assign them the same types of tasks / missions. What I'm saying is that by the same token USS Narwhal, the quietest boat in the fleet would probably be asked to do some sneaky stuff (SEAL insertion and recon) your 25+ year old Skipjack is probably going to be put on some kind of barrier patrol vs. sneaking into Soviet waters. While I think this is worth bringing up, its true that game play has to be taken into account, can't imagine the game would be very popular if you just spent hours watching your old Skipjack rust and gather marine growth.

[PL_Harpoon]

Originally Posted by jenrick

As an aside a much bigger game play issue to me is the breaking of torpedo wires. I know for instance the MK48 is set to 10% chance, but I routinely can fire 4, at 5 kts level bubble and rudder, and have one wire survive launch. Even then it's rare for it to last anything close to the full run of the fish. I'm curious if there's something a bit off with the their probability generator or if I just have REALLY bad luck with torpedo wires. I even tried an experiment of setting the wire break chance to 1% with the same result.


-Jenrick

Wire break chance only affects braking the wire at launch.
If I'm not mistaken, wire braking works like that.
- % chance of braking at launch
- the biggest angle between direction of the boat and the torpedo the greatest chance of braking the wire - the manual states it's 40 deg (20 on each side), in my experience it's more like 60.
- wire will brake when your speed exceeds 15 knots
- pitching will also increase the chance of braking - this one is a bit vague and I haven't tested it much, however I have been diving at 20 deg without the wire braking, but that was at some distance from the torpedo - basically, when I have a connection I tend to change depth by ballast only.
- some boats have limited number of connections. Skipjack can have only one, Permit, Sturgeon and Narwhal can have 2 and only LA can have 4 wire guided torps at a time.

As far as I know these are the only rules that affect torpedo wires. So if you follow those rules, the only way a wire can break is if it does on launch (10% chance, but can be moddable).

[Wiz33]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Wire break chance only affects braking the wire at launch.
If I'm not mistaken, wire braking works like that.
- % chance of braking at launch
- the biggest angle between direction of the boat and the torpedo the greatest chance of braking the wire - the manual states it's 40 deg (20 on each side), in my experience it's more like 60.
- wire will brake when your speed exceeds 15 knots
- pitching will also increase the chance of braking - this one is a bit vague and I haven't tested it much, however I have been diving at 20 deg without the wire braking, but that was at some distance from the torpedo - basically, when I have a connection I tend to change depth by ballast only.
- some boats have limited number of connections. Skipjack can have only one, Permit, Sturgeon and Narwhal can have 2 and only LA can have 4 wire guided torps at a time.

As far as I know these are the only rules that affect torpedo wires. So if you follow those rules, the only way a wire can break is if it does on launch (10% chance, but can be moddable).

Murphy also have a hand in it. I had a torp doing a dogleg, It's well within the forward 60, my sub did not change speed and pitch and the wire broke just when I was about to have it turn in towards the target. Waste a perfectly good torp.

[jenrick]

I'd assume that we should be able to do "over the shoulder launches" due the torpedo having to run out initially (I believe it is referred to as it's "reach") before it begins to turn. I'm guessing that this hasn't changed from WW2 to know. This I would think would solve the wire break problem, as they would no longer be trying to run as soon as they clear the muzzle of the tube. Looking through the weapons file I see no way to implement this, but I think it would be a good behavior to add as it is a) realistic and b) helps handle one of the more frustrating issues of wire breakage.

-Jenrick