ALL THE MISSING FEATURES THAT A WWII SUBMARINE SIMULATION SHOULD HAVE - Page 3

Mister_M · 12-01-21, 08:34 AM

Well, I finally managed to download and play AOTD. The AI looks fine (more subtile escort, merchant ships trying to evade... I didn't test airplanes), but the extremly bad looking ships through periscope is a total game killer for me, I don't even know what course the targets have, I can't see only pixels on the sea surface....

So, you mainly play with the nav map screen, which I find not very realistic. Also, you can't operate hydrophone, which is a big flaw. It's also necessary to find proper shortcuts, because playing only with the mouse is a nightmare...

But indeed, it's a new point of view of Sub simulation compared to SH3, and it's a pity that SH3 is not an improvment of AOTD...

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Well, I finally managed to download and play AOTD. The AI looks fine (more subtile escort, merchant ships trying to evade... I didn't test airplanes), but the extremly bad looking ships through periscope is a total game killer for me, I don't even know what course the targets have, I can't see only pixels on the sea surface....

So, you mainly play with the nav map screen, which I find not very realistic. Also, you can't operate hydrophone, which is a big flaw. It's also necessary to find proper shortcuts, because playing only with the mouse is a nightmare...

But indeed, it's a new point of view of Sub simulation compared to SH3, and it's a pity that SH3 is not an improvment of AOTD...

Target's course, speed, and bearing is in your scope/uzo view info. panel. And the nav. map info. box too of course. Once a ship/convoy is close enough, it's easier to do so visually.
Regarding the nav. map, I don't have a problem with that as a lot of time is spent at it in SH3 too and doing so in any game is a way to provide situational awareness on a computer, that a person would have as is irl.
I also don't care about working the hydrophone, etc., including in SH3; I prefer to be the commander, not each crew member, i.e. But I understand others prefer to access multiple stations.

A shortcut guide comes with the game, probably online too somewhere.
Anyway, glad you got to try it !

Randomizer · 12-01-21, 10:47 AM

The graphics vs. content conundrum is probably unsolvable so we can set it aside. As is realism since the delivery of data in AOD is not at all what one would see on a U-Boat in the Atlantic but the situations presented to the Player are much more historically and technically reasonable than those in even modded SH3/4. In effect AOD presents realistic situations in a gamy, 1990's fashion, when the mouse was an innovation and most gamers relied on the keyboard.

So graphics and realism are entirely subjective red herrings and since developers steadfastly refuse to provide a simulation with both, enjoy your sound and light spectacular; imagery over substantive tactical problem solving.

The immersion myth is another red herring as I have found myself more immersed in AOD situations than has ever happened in the SH franchise. I get my immersion from my imagination and have no expectation that it will be provided by the developers via visual cues.

Quote:

extremely bad looking ships through periscope is a total game killer for me

No surprize here but AOD is very deep (pun intended) and there is a lot going on under the hood that is lost if you write it off for its clunky graphics and (mostly) crappy sound.

-C

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

The graphics vs. content conundrum is probably unsolvable so we can set it aside. As is realism since the delivery of data in AOD is not at all what one would see on a U-Boat in the Atlantic but the situations presented to the Player are much more historically and technically reasonable than those in even modded SH3/4. In effect AOD presents realistic situations in a gamy, 1990's fashion, when the mouse was an innovation and most gamers relied on the keyboard.

So graphics and realism are entirely subjective red herrings and since developers steadfastly refuse to provide a simulation with both, enjoy your sound and light spectacular; imagery over substantive tactical problem solving.

The immersion myth is another red herring as I have found myself more immersed in AOD situations than has ever happened in the SH franchise. I get my immersion from my imagination and have no expectation that it will be provided by the developers via visual cues.

No surprize here but AOD is very deep (pun intended) and there is a lot going on under the hood that is lost if you write it off for its clunky graphics and (mostly) crappy sound.

-C

Mister_M · 12-01-21, 12:47 PM

I understand your point of view. You have probably played this game before SH3 was created, so you are judging SH3 with AOD as a "reference". I do the same thing myself, but SH3 being my reference. Well, probably, deception is more influencing our judgment than joy for the improved features. So, you were so disappointed by SH3's AI that you state that AOD is a better "simulation", and I probably do the same. Yes, we can't stand a regression compared to what we have already played, so we get angry and leave.

I will try to play more missions with AOD, but I need to learn the game's "logic" (way of working), and also the keyboard shortcuts. For example, when a DD is coming for a DC attack, what are your options to increase your chance of survival (apart from praying

) ? By the way, it was very "anxiogene" when I heard DD's propellers coming over me, well done, i guess it's a main feature !

Else, the very first convoy mission I've played was disappointing. I didn't see any ship on the surface (even with bino), so I asked the Watch officer to give me contacts, and he said ennemy bearing 348°. So I looked with bino at 348 (of my sub) and saw nothing. So I sailed full speed on new course (south) but still nothing. Then, after several minutes, I went to the nav map and saw points north of me. Some time later, I discovered that it was in fact the COURSE of the convoy which was 348°. Is it a known issue ?

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I understand your point of view. You have probably played this game before SH3 was created, so you are judging SH3 with AOD as a "reference". I do the same thing myself, but SH3 being my reference. Well, probably, deception is more influencing our judgment than joy for the improved features. So, you were so disappointed by SH3's AI that you state that AOD is a better "simulation", and I probably do the same. Yes, we can't stand a regression compared to what we have already played, so we get angry and leave.

I will try to play more missions with AOD, but I need to learn the game's "logic" (way of working), and also the keyboard shortcuts. For example, when a DD is coming for a DC attack, what are your options to increase your chance of survival (apart from praying

) ? By the way, it was very "anxiogene" when I heard DD's propellers coming over me, well done, i guess it's a main feature !

Else, the very first convoy mission I've played was disappointing. I didn't see any ship on the surface (even with bino), so I asked the Watch officer to give me contacts, and he said ennemy bearing 348°. So I looked with bino at 348 (of my sub) and saw nothing. So I sailed full speed on new course (south) but still nothing. Then, after several minutes, I went to the nav map and saw points north of me. Some time later, I discovered that it was in fact the COURSE of the convoy which was 348°. Is it a known issue ?

In terms of escort evasion, if I'm being chased I like to double back on them once submerged and try to go under them. I.e., if they're course is 90 degrees, I would turn to 270.
If already submerged and being hunted, depth is your friend, along with speed. However, anything past 180 meters allows water to seep in, which activates bilge pumps to get rid of it. Bilge pump/compressed air noise is detected in AOD, unlike SH3. Pay attention to your gauges via the G key. Silent running helps, but unlike SH3, you can't leave it always on as water will seep in the boat since silent running turns off the pumps.
Otherwise the usual tactics; keep your profile correct. I like to change depth, speed, and maybe course when depth charges are coming.

Depth charge noise will cover you in AOD, unlike SH3, so that's a good time for evasion too. Unlike SH3 where you can many times ignore the escorts and what they're up to while being hunted, in AOD one needs to pay attention to them.

Also, pay attention to the red spokes showing the escorts asdic. If they move fast, the escort is close and vice versa.
Going to take some experimenting to get the hang of things since you don't have a manual/cd.

I'm not sure I understand your ship finding example, sorry.

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 01:39 PM

I think I now understand your ship finding problem example. AOD bearings are usually the *true* bearing. I.e., in your example the ship was at 348 true, not 348 from your course.

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 01:52 PM

Another tip when on the surface. Unlike SH3 where all your watch crew does is notify you of a ship approaching/seen and you have to check yourself if it's an escort or something else, AOD's crew will tell you if such ship is an escort or not. Can help assessing danger or not.
However, all of the AOD crew's functions are dependent on crew quality; green crews aren't as good at them as elite crews, i.e.

Mad Mardigan · 12-01-21, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

I also don't care about working the hydrophone, etc., including in SH3; I prefer to be the commander, not each crew member, i.e. But I understand others prefer to access multiple stations.

This... this right here, was what I tried to get through to kyle about them & others running that uboat flotilla group via discord.

In that, is the unwavering stipulation, to partake in it... of using no weap's officer assist.

Everything else in that, I was down with... but for that.... for that very self same reason.

Thanks, it is nice to know that there are others who share that same view point.

M. M.

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan

This... this right here, was what I tried to get through to kyle about them & others running that uboat flotilla group via discord.

In that, is the unwavering stipulation, to partake in it... of using no weap's officer assist.

Everything else in that, I was down with... but for that.... for that very self same reason.

Thanks, it is nice to know that there are others who share that same view point.

M. M.

Completely understand and agree.

Randomizer · 12-01-21, 04:19 PM

To be fair, placing AOD on a sub simulation pedestal should probably carry an entire hockey sock of caveats but it was certainly ground-breaking in 1994. The problem with this view is that it sadly demonstrates the complete failure of developer after developer to produce an out-of-the-box game with the level of detail representative of the Battle of the Atlantic and the U-Boat commander's tiny piece of it as a whole, in the intervening 25+ years.

AOD certainly has issues, mine will often crash when reporting a convoy (the infamous "Smoke on the horizon Captain" crash. The use of true vice relative bearings, particularly for hydrophone contacts, has been mentioned and the AA guns are probably over-powered. Also, your boat has far greater range than it should have and a Type VII can easily spend a couple of weeks off North America without needing a tanker.

That said, late-war escorts may have Foxers and these make passive hunting your boat much more difficult. Hedgehog works and can be deadly. BdU will send you to new patrol areas, Liberator bombers can carry FIDO homing torpedoes and you can abandon ship, all without any external modding.

I do have fun with the SH franchise, all heavily modded (Thanks to all concerned) but AOD presents situations and problems that still escape even the most talented Modders decades after the games' releases. This is not an indictment of the Players or the Modders but rather one against the developers, who time and again fail to replicate the sitautions and AI of an almost 30-year old program, written in DOS and barely 13 Mb in size.

A pox on all of their houses...

-C

John Pancoast · 12-01-21, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

To be fair, placing AOD on a sub simulation pedestal should probably carry an entire hockey sock of caveats but it was certainly ground-breaking in 1994. The problem with this view is that it sadly demonstrates the complete failure of developer after developer to produce an out-of-the-box game with the level of detail representative of the Battle of the Atlantic and the U-Boat commander's tiny piece of it as a whole, in the intervening 25+ years.

AOD certainly has issues, mine will often crash when reporting a convoy (the infamous "Smoke on the horizon Captain" crash. The use of true vice relative bearings, particularly for hydrophone contacts, has been mentioned and the AA guns are probably over-powered. Also, your boat has far greater range than it should have and a Type VII can easily spend a couple of weeks off North America without needing a tanker.

That said, late-war escorts may have Foxers and these make passive hunting your boat much more difficult. Hedgehog works and can be deadly. BdU will send you to new patrol areas, Liberator bombers can carry FIDO homing torpedoes and you can abandon ship, all without any external modding.

I do have fun with the SH franchise, all heavily modded (Thanks to all concerned) but AOD presents situations and problems that still escape even the most talented Modders decades after the games' releases. This is not an indictment of the Players or the Modders but rather one against the developers, who time and again fail to replicate the sitautions and AI of an almost 30-year old program, written in DOS and barely 13 Mb in size.

A pox on all of their houses...

-C

Another well written post.

Though I've never experienced the ctd mentioned, I can relate very well to the hockey reference being in NW Minnysoda myself.....

Randomizer · 12-01-21, 04:29 PM

TY. For those perhaps unaware, a hockey sock is f-n huge...

-C

Note: Implied expletive added for emphasis.

Mister_M · 12-01-21, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

To be fair, placing AOD on a sub simulation pedestal should probably carry an entire hockey sock of caveats but it was certainly ground-breaking in 1994. The problem with this view is that it sadly demonstrates the complete failure of developer after developer to produce an out-of-the-box game with the level of detail representative of the Battle of the Atlantic and the U-Boat commander's tiny piece of it as a whole, in the intervening 25+ years.

This is not an indictment of the Players or the Modders but rather one against the developers, who time and again fail to replicate the sitautions and AI of an almost 30-year old program, written in DOS and barely 13 Mb in size.

A pox on all of their houses...

Maybe it's IQ decreasing year after year ?

We should also keep in mind that they are not free, and often or always asked to produce games in a short time. So, having to work harder on the graphics side, they have less time for history and AI codding... This is just a guess...

Graphics have now reached an incredible level. It would be time to work on other aspects, and AI is the main objective. But maybe it requires more clever devs... i don't know.

propbeanie · 12-01-21, 06:22 PM

ditto John Pancoast and Randomizer. For me, Up Periscope, Red Storm Rising and a few others were dipping my toes into the subs, and lead me to SSI/Aegis's Silent Hunter (the original) and AOD. I made myself boot disks to get those running on my anemic systems back then. So I was so hopeful when SH II came out, with Destroyer Command, and never so disappointed... until SH3, then SH4, then SH5... time after time... Only modders have made the "modern" games playable, especially SH5. All the SH games are over at least 10 years old, and the engine is over 15. What is really a shame is the money. No, games are not free, but they are also not inexpensive. If they worked out of the box, fine, but... From my perspective, having been a paid programmer for a short time, is that they bought too much pizza and Mountain Dew (or coke, with a small "C") with the money, and did not spend enough money to properly find out how the previous version of the game worked. Kind of slapped something together and Ubi shoved it out the door (except SHII which took forever)... Don't have time to do it right the first time, but we do have time to go back and try to fix it, and do that again, and again, and again...

- sorry... apologies to the OP and Topic... lol - but seriously, why was SH II / Destroyer Command never followed up on? The possibilities are endless.

12-01-21, 12:47 PM	#35
Mister_M Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 787 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	I understand your point of view. You have probably played this game before SH3 was created, so you are judging SH3 with AOD as a "reference". I do the same thing myself, but SH3 being my reference. Well, probably, deception is more influencing our judgment than joy for the improved features. So, you were so disappointed by SH3's AI that you state that AOD is a better "simulation", and I probably do the same. Yes, we can't stand a regression compared to what we have already played, so we get angry and leave. I will try to play more missions with AOD, but I need to learn the game's "logic" (way of working), and also the keyboard shortcuts. For example, when a DD is coming for a DC attack, what are your options to increase your chance of survival (apart from praying ) ? By the way, it was very "anxiogene" when I heard DD's propellers coming over me, well done, i guess it's a main feature ! Else, the very first convoy mission I've played was disappointing. I didn't see any ship on the surface (even with bino), so I asked the Watch officer to give me contacts, and he said ennemy bearing 348°. So I looked with bino at 348 (of my sub) and saw nothing. So I sailed full speed on new course (south) but still nothing. Then, after several minutes, I went to the nav map and saw points north of me. Some time later, I discovered that it was in fact the COURSE of the convoy which was 348°. Is it a known issue ? Last edited by Mister_M; 12-01-21 at 12:59 PM.

12-01-21, 01:39 PM	#37
John Pancoast Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Minnysoda Posts: 3,174 Downloads: 490 Uploads: 4	I think I now understand your ship finding problem example. AOD bearings are usually the true bearing. I.e., in your example the ship was at 348 true, not 348 from your course. __________________ "Realistic" is not always GAME-GOOD." - Wave Skipper

12-01-21, 01:52 PM	#38
John Pancoast Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Minnysoda Posts: 3,174 Downloads: 490 Uploads: 4	Another tip when on the surface. Unlike SH3 where all your watch crew does is notify you of a ship approaching/seen and you have to check yourself if it's an escort or something else, AOD's crew will tell you if such ship is an escort or not. Can help assessing danger or not. However, all of the AOD crew's functions are dependent on crew quality; green crews aren't as good at them as elite crews, i.e. __________________ "Realistic" is not always GAME-GOOD." - Wave Skipper

12-01-21, 06:22 PM	#45
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,735 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	ditto John Pancoast and Randomizer. For me, Up Periscope, Red Storm Rising and a few others were dipping my toes into the subs, and lead me to SSI/Aegis's Silent Hunter (the original) and AOD. I made myself boot disks to get those running on my anemic systems back then. So I was so hopeful when SH II came out, with Destroyer Command, and never so disappointed... until SH3, then SH4, then SH5... time after time... Only modders have made the "modern" games playable, especially SH5. All the SH games are over at least 10 years old, and the engine is over 15. What is really a shame is the money. No, games are not free, but they are also not inexpensive. If they worked out of the box, fine, but... From my perspective, having been a paid programmer for a short time, is that they bought too much pizza and Mountain Dew (or coke, with a small "C") with the money, and did not spend enough money to properly find out how the previous version of the game worked. Kind of slapped something together and Ubi shoved it out the door (except SHII which took forever)... Don't have time to do it right the first time, but we do have time to go back and try to fix it, and do that again, and again, and again... - sorry... apologies to the OP and Topic... lol - but seriously, why was SH II / Destroyer Command never followed up on? The possibilities are endless. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

12-01-21, 08:34 AM	#31
Mister_M Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2021 Posts: 787 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Well, I finally managed to download and play AOTD. The AI looks fine (more subtile escort, merchant ships trying to evade... I didn't test airplanes), but the extremly bad looking ships through periscope is a total game killer for me, I don't even know what course the targets have, I can't see only pixels on the sea surface.... So, you mainly play with the nav map screen, which I find not very realistic. Also, you can't operate hydrophone, which is a big flaw. It's also necessary to find proper shortcuts, because playing only with the mouse is a nightmare... But indeed, it's a new point of view of Sub simulation compared to SH3, and it's a pity that SH3 is not an improvment of AOTD...

12-01-21, 04:19 PM	#41
Randomizer Watch Officer Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 334 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 0	To be fair, placing AOD on a sub simulation pedestal should probably carry an entire hockey sock of caveats but it was certainly ground-breaking in 1994. The problem with this view is that it sadly demonstrates the complete failure of developer after developer to produce an out-of-the-box game with the level of detail representative of the Battle of the Atlantic and the U-Boat commander's tiny piece of it as a whole, in the intervening 25+ years. AOD certainly has issues, mine will often crash when reporting a convoy (the infamous "Smoke on the horizon Captain" crash. The use of true vice relative bearings, particularly for hydrophone contacts, has been mentioned and the AA guns are probably over-powered. Also, your boat has far greater range than it should have and a Type VII can easily spend a couple of weeks off North America without needing a tanker. That said, late-war escorts may have Foxers and these make passive hunting your boat much more difficult. Hedgehog works and can be deadly. BdU will send you to new patrol areas, Liberator bombers can carry FIDO homing torpedoes and you can abandon ship, all without any external modding. I do have fun with the SH franchise, all heavily modded (Thanks to all concerned) but AOD presents situations and problems that still escape even the most talented Modders decades after the games' releases. This is not an indictment of the Players or the Modders but rather one against the developers, who time and again fail to replicate the sitautions and AI of an almost 30-year old program, written in DOS and barely 13 Mb in size. A pox on all of their houses... -C

12-01-21, 04:29 PM	#43
Randomizer Watch Officer Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 334 Downloads: 131 Uploads: 0	TY. For those perhaps unaware, a hockey sock is f-n huge... -C Note: Implied expletive added for emphasis.