ALL THE MISSING FEATURES THAT A WWII SUBMARINE SIMULATION SHOULD HAVE

[Mister_M]

Hello,

In this thread, I would like to list all the missing (or badly done) features which, in your opinion (and mine), are really missing in SH3 to make it a real good U-Boot and WWII simulation. This list could be useful to help developpers for a future U-Boot simulation.

I will update this first post with all your ideas.

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Before each line, the evaluation that I give to the difficulty to add the feature (1/5 = easy ----- 5/5 = very hard).

* = Possible to partially correct/add to SH3.
** = Possible to fully correct/add to SH3.

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The weather

Weather, night and moon light should be key factors having a major effect on detection ability (visual, hydrophone, ASDIC, radar) both for the enemy and yourself *. Cf. AI detection ability.

3/5 - The weather should be far more sophisticated, with a lot of various and precise parameters, different types of clouds, realistic wind speeds and sea states.

2/5 - The type of weather should depend on the period of the year and geographical position (for example, there are more storms in the North Atlantic during winter).

1/5 - Snow (snow squalls) and aurora borealis (illuminating the night) should be added.

1/5 - Bad weather (storm) should cause the convoys to scatter.

1/5 - You shouldn't be able to use periscope at night, or only (and hardly) with bright moon light (full moon in clear sky).


The AI units

2/5 - They should be able to attack with torpedoes (AI submarines, aircrafts, fast boats, destroyers...).

4/5 - They should adjust their attack depending on the power of the enemy in front of them (run away under a smoke screen, run for a torpedo attack, crash dive...).

2/5 - All the units escorting a convoy should not attack at the same time a single U-Boot, leaving the convoy without protection. They also shouldn't hunt it for too long (for example no more than 30 minutes), their main task being to escort the convoy. They should use ASDIC even prior to any enemy contact. They shouldn't go away too far from the convoy

3/5 - They should be able to not get stuck against the shore, and choose a "clever" route to avoid coast line and other obstacles.

Detection ability :
2/5 - they should't be able to detect you with hydrophone if you're sailing in the middle of a convoy ;
1/5 - they should't be able to detect you with ASDIC if you're near other ships or near/on the sea bottom ;
1/5 - they should't be able to see you at night (or hardly) with only visual sensor * (in order to be able to conduct realistic night surface attacks, including getting inside convoys without being spotted as some U-Boot's aces did in WWII) ;
1/5 - they should't be able to detect you with hydrophone or ASDIC during/after DC explosions ;
3/5 - hydrophone, ASDIC or radar should not give to the AI your exact position (distance, bearing and depth) nor your course and speed (or hardly).

1/5 - Airplanes shouldn't be able to fly/attack in storm (nor at night, except for special units equiped with radar/Ley light).

1/5 - It should be possible to stop a neutral ship to inspect her cargo, and ask the crew to leave the boat if you think you have to sink this ship. You should be able to detect if the ship is transmitting detress signals with her radio. Some merchant also refusing to stop, and even trying to ramm you.

3/5 - It should be possible to interact with a ship or submarine to refuel or load torpedoes at sea, something more realistic and sophisticated than just sailing to a point, anchor next to a ship/submarine and leaving game and reloading with random addition of fuel and torpedoes.

5/5 - You should be able to operate in wolfpacks, the AI U-Boots being enough clever to report (with useful informations) and follow a convoy without being detected, and choose the best moment and place to attack with torpedoes. The BdU should also give proper orders given the situations, including giving some patrol areas for each U-Boot of the pack.

3/5 - The enemy should be able to send a hunter killer group (if possible) where you have been spotted by visual detection, your radio transmissions (Hf/Df) or intelligence (decoded german encrypted messages with ULTRA).


Campaign and historical aspects

3/5 - All convoys should be historical (dates, route, composition, escort, etc.) *.

2/5 - The BdU should be much more active, telling you where the convoys are, what tactics to use, what new dangers to avoid... Historical messages should be used as much as possible **.

2/5 - Minefields should be historical (areas, density, type of mines, depth) *.


The crew of the playable U-Boot

4/5 - You should have the feeling to be in the shoes of the U-Boot's commander. Not having to do calculations, but only deciding about strategical decisions. You should have a large chat list containing precise orders to give to the crew. In particular, while in a torpedo attack run, a chain of historical orders and replies by the officers and crew members should take place.

2/5 - Repairs to the boat should be realistic. A flooding meaning most of the time surfacing and surrendering... if not too late to die.

2/5 - A crew member should be able to give (limited) medical assistance.


Misc

3/5 - The Earth should be spherical and not flat, in order to have real distances and GPS coordinates (to recreate real events, battles...). You should be able to see a ship disappearing under the horizon when sailing away of it.

1/5 - The distances of visibility should be far greater. In SH3 (with special env mods), the maximum is 20 km, but it can be 100 km in real life.

3/5 - Geography (including sea floor with shallows and reefs) should be accurate, at least in areas where we are often sailing or of historical interest (German and French coast, Scapa Flow, Helgoland...).

2/5 - Harbours should have historical look. U-Boots' bunkers should appear at proper dates.

2/5 - The merchant ships should have a realistic look and reflect variety **.

1/5 - Neutral merchant ships should wear neutrality marks on their hull **.

2/5 - Realistic and meaningful sounds given by the hydrophone.

2/5 - Chlorine gas should appear when the batteries are damaged, with consequences on the crew...

3/5 - All the work around the torpedoes should be more historicaly correct (it was necessary to regularly charge their batteries, to warm up them before launching for greater range, etc.)


The mission editor

1/5 - There should be a way to precisely script the weather for a specific mission over the time (for example : cloudy at the beginning, then little rain 2 hours and 22 minutes later with more wind, then some sun and clouds for 45 minutes, etc.) .

1/5 - It should be possible to script a special behaviour of units for a specific mission (kamikaze attack, or always withdraw attack if there is an any enemy cruiser...).

2/5 - More complexe conditions (with the use of boolean operators) should be available to determine different scenarios. The building of conditions, events, triggers... should be easier (less rigid) and clearer. It should be possible to create missions lasting several days or months.

1/5 - It should be possible to continue to play a mission, regardless of the objectives (all missed or all completed).

1/5 - It should be possible to choose what skin (texture) to apply to each specific unit.

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What else ?

[Anvar1061]

Airplanes should not fly in bad weather.

[John Pancoast]

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics.

[Randomizer]

This list could be useful to help developers for a future U-Boot simulation.

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>

AOD with current graphics would do. Period. Heck, it does even without current graphics

This!

-C

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>

Thank you for sharing your experience. You're probably right, our crazy capitalist system produces only bull**** to make money, the only goal of this poor world...

Nevertheless, it's always good to have in mind all the lacking features, in order to have a better idea of what should be a good WWII submarine simulation.

And perhaps an "open" submarine simulation will come to life one day, built by passionate guys, there are so many... Graphics are not the most important IMO, only historical accuracy and the feeling to really fight a war, not playing a stupid game.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

<rant on>

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is pure wishful thinking. They have been reading similar content for decades but don't care because the community will largely pay for crappy, new games solely because they're new. Also the trope that "We MUST purchase bad games to encourage SOMEBODY to produce a good one" has proven fallacious time after time.

Arguably since AOD and the original Silent Hunter, posts like this have appeared by the dozen (maybe by the hundreds) and virtually every subsequent submarine simulation sheds features rather than adds to them, often but not always for slick graphics. Producing a glitzy sound and light spectacular is cheaper than a deep simulation that marries strategic and tactical accuracy for the Player with a GUI that captures the essence of the combat submarine commanders role.

<rant off>



This!

-C

:u p::Kal eun_Thumbs_Up:


Nail/head.

[John Pancoast]

One fun thing I would like to see sometime. With a surface attack, have the player able to designate a target(s) for an ai officer to attack with the torpedoes. After designation, the ai would carry out all the actual details/functions of the attack.

Instead of the player, being the commander, having to also be the first officer, navigator, watch crew, etc. all at the same time.

[iambecomelife]

AI UNITS MAKE REALISTIC THREAT ASSESSMENT.

In the Silent Hunter series a destroyer will mindlessly fight a battleship to the death.

In SES Jutland, weaker ships like DD's and Light Cruisers, when they see Dreadnoughts, will use their higher top speed to withdraw out of gun range and shadow you. Then they radio for their own big ship fleets to attack you.

Just like the actual sinking of "Bismarck" ... the British cruisers "Norfolk" and "Suffolk" didn't charge in like madmen; they shadowed her on the horizon and called for "Prince of Wales" & "Hood".

Likewise, in convoy battles, no sending the entire group of escorts after the player submarine. In real life several escorts had to be kept to escort the remaining ships after and attack - also, one or two needed to be used to pick up survivors.

[Randomizer]

I would never use the pathetic AI found in the SES Jutland/Distant Guns games for a standard as it is really pretty pathetic. I certainly have never seen this shadowing behaviour that you refer to and both games time out after 30-minutes or less with no combat. 1st Cruiser Squadron's shadow of Bismarck was some 12-hours and so unreproducable by Jutland because of the timeout issue.

Jutland also used a far too simplistic and entirely linear, points based algorithm to determine the force ratio. The AI, such as it is, will always flee a superior force and always close to suicidal ranges against an inferior force. Since these values are global across the action, it explains why it sometimes behaves in odd ways. I have been told by a source that I trust (of course you do not have to), that the AI also has full, real time knowledge of the strengths and locations of the Player forces and so never suffers from the Fog-of-War.

Try the Coronel scenario as von Spee and you will see that Cradock will always run. Playing as the British see the Germans will soon close to ranges where even little Otranto can get hits with her 4.7" popguns. Every time that I have played the scenario, this cycle of lameness repeats.

The AI in the Steam and Iron franchise does shadow and never times out and makes a far better example of an adequate naval programmed opponent.

-C

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by Randomizer

I would never use the pathetic AI found in the SES Jutland/Distant Guns games for a standard as it is really pretty pathetic. I certainly have never seen this shadowing behaviour that you refer to and both games time out after 30-minutes or less with no combat. 1st Cruiser Squadron's shadow of Bismarck was some 12-hours and so unreproducable by Jutland because of the timeout issue.

Jutland also used a far too simplistic and entirely linear, points based algorithm to determine the force ratio. The AI, such as it is, will always flee a superior force and always close to suicidal ranges against an inferior force. Since these values are global across the action, it explains why it sometimes behaves in odd ways. I have been told by a source that I trust (of course you do not have to), that the AI also has full, real time knowledge of the strengths and locations of the Player forces and so never suffers from the Fog-of-War.

Try the Coronel scenario as von Spee and you will see that Cradock will always run. Playing as the British see the Germans will soon close to ranges where even little Otranto can get hits with her 4.7" popguns. Every time that I have played the scenario, this cycle of lameness repeats.

The AI in the Steam and Iron franchise does shadow and never times out and makes a far better example of an adequate naval programmed opponent.

-C

Interesting. I was impressed by certain aspects of Jutland's AI (I often used BC's for commerce raiding and the British destroyers would always run from me, as they should). I did not know about all the other issues - hope that the next generation of sims (Wolfpack, Crash Dive) fix this.


Another issue - rescuing survivors. That's another issue that historically limited Allied escorts - several ships were sunk rescuing merchant crews, and naturally the Allied navies found that leaving lifeboats behind was bad for merchant ship crews' morale. All the more reason to NOT have every single escort come charging after the player's sub once torpedoes hit a ship. No need for a complex animation (although that would be nice) - just have 1 or 2 corvettes/DD's approach a sinking ship for 10-20 minutes...maybe animate some men climbing up a Jacob's Ladder.

[Mister_M]

Battle between surface ships is not the goal of a submarine simulation. In the Battle of the Atlantic, playing as a submarine, you will probably never see any german battleship in action. Moreover, destroyers can attack with torpedoes at night. The night before Bismarck was sunk, she was chased during hours by several british destroyers which tried to torpedoe her, but they were repulsed by Bismarck artillery.

About escorts of a convoy, you can have only one or two escort ships attacking you, while the others stay in escort position, simply by choosing the level (veteran and elite will attack you, medium and less will stay in position). But yes, a better and more realistic coordination between AI escort units would be nice.

About picking survivors, well it's no more than eye candy for me. You can add small ships (like trawlers) at the end of the convoy to simulate this. But yes, it would be cool to see a recue ship coming near a sinking vessel and stay a moment.

About surface attack done only by your crew, a historical chain of commands would be good, there would be an officer on the bridge to set the torpedo's data. You would be able to talk directly to the interior of the u-boot with the voice tubes to order to set torpedo's speed, flood tube, etc ...), and crew could talk to you either (like tube 1 ready for fire, etc.). So, have a chat list instead of GUI's buttons like the "fire" button, and a whole algorithm for the crew to answer you, depending on the situation. The game's goal being to simulate the u-boot's commander position, even if you would be able to do some manual adjustments (like tweaking TDC's data).

[iambecomelife]

-Proper portrayal of dud ammunition. In my opinion, many iterations of Silent Hunter 4 STILL did not portray the extent of Mk XIV's unreliability .... I felt like I was sinking too many ships in 1942-1943. Same goes for dud shells. There are no dud shells in stock SH3-SH4, and there is no way to get dud shells without negatively affecting all shell performance (you can add duds using the modding tool S3ditor but this impacts all min-max damage values).

-Accurate sound/visual/radar signatures for all objects. I am pretty sure that the calculation process for detection in SH3/4 is pretty crude. Enemy vessels should have varying detection percentages via radar for locating, say, a raised snorkel versus an entire submarine surfaced.

Radar (especially early radar) should have very serious problems with clutter/landmasses in the way until historical refinements are made.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

Accurate sound/visual/radar signatures for all objects. I am pretty sure that the calculation process for detection in SH3/4 is pretty crude. Enemy vessels should have varying detection percentages via radar for locating, say, a raised snorkel versus an entire submarine surfaced.

Radar (especially early radar) should have very serious problems with clutter/landmasses in the way until historical refinements are made.

I agree with you, but this would require a lot of work and research, and the help of specialists. The goal being to simulate the real behaviour of very complexe devices, operating in various natural situations... So, probably impossible to be accurate for this part of simulation...

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

I agree with you, but this would require a lot of work and research, and the help of specialists. The goal being to simulate the real behavior of very complex devices, operating in various natural situations... So, probably impossible to be accurate for this part of simulation...

I beg to differ...

Sim's, have come a long way, since the very 1st started off... could name pretty much all the oldie but goodies, that started off the simulation genre... to the more... modern ones... for the sake of brevity here (& besides, pretty much most here, already know the names of them.. ) but, the point is... over time they have improved.

Does that mean that they are perfect... No, far from it, but... there is still room, for improvement. Case in point, SH5... *facepalms* just to name 1... thanks to those modding it, have made it not the dumpster fire it was, when Ubi 1st shoved it out the door & under the proverbial bus... all for the sake of a fast buck... (Thanks, Ubi... NOT.)

With the abled bodied assistance of those self same people, add in modders with a love for it... I foresee when sim's will be more in line with the ability of simulating actual conditions... minus the user, actually being in the given situational aspect, of course. But, who knows.. maybe that might be able to be added in later on... simulated, of course. food for thought...



M. M.

[Mister_M]

Probably submarine simulations are harder to create than "first-person shooter" types...

A submarine is something very complexe (you can still visit existing WWII submarines to understand what I'm thinking about), and it operates in a complexe element (the sea)... Moreover, the battle of the Atlantic was also a very complexe battle which lasted for several years... So, not very "money-making" simulation in the end... and also because it's played by far less people...