[TEC] Make AI-Uboats attack Convois, via Radio - Page 2

urfisch · 01-20-09, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

What I did in sh4 was to make a new plane, and point it at the 3d model of a boat as an experiment. When that worked, I cloned a plane, and changed the 3d model in the dat to a boat, messed with the sim, etc. Had to live in the Air folder.

anyone tested this?

anyway, if this works...the cloned "airplane-boats" do not have the properties of the ai-boats...right? and therefore will not attack or dive, or do similar things.

tater · 01-20-09, 10:53 AM

No, it acted like a plane in the first test (it WAS a plane, just a different 3d model. Dunno about sh3, but in sh4 you can simply point the cfg at a different model path, and boom, it uses it.

The 2d experiment, actually changed the sim of the plane so that it would drive around on the water. It was none the less a PLANE, and acted like one, just not flying (hence "airboat"

)

The goal in my experiments was a boat that would happily drop the fully functional AI air torpedo in sh4.

bigboywooly · 01-20-09, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urfisch

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

I tried something similar for my test mission

[Unit]
ClassName=NormalSubBaseGe
UnitType=406
MaxSpeed=0.000000
MinSpeed=0.000000
Length=1
Width=1

[AirGroup 1]
StartDate=19410102
EndDate=19430101
Squadron1Class=Resupply Uboat
Squadron1No=1

And didnt spawn anything - using a regular AI sub though

is the ai-boat scripted in itself and defined as "Resupply Uboat"? otherwise it will not even spawn and nothing happens. if it is defined as "Resupply Uboat" it may spawn, but stay there and do nothing - if there are no scripts for these boats. i dont know, how the ai-boats work.
!

Resupply boat is the IXB AI class name
No wasnt scripted
The Sub ( air ) base was placed in the campaign files

Was using blank campaign files so any other scripts wouldnt matter anyway
Besides that shouldnt be a problem as air units are scripted and still spawn from air bases

No Tater SH3 doesnt have that feature to point to a 3d model
Another improvement when using multiple variations of the same ship

May try a clone of the AI IXB but change the type= to an airplane
See if it spawns that way using a normal airbase
Though not sure what the behaviour will be like if does
lol

Stiebler · 01-22-09, 04:04 AM

Urfisch's interesting idea led me to carry out some tests with NYGM.

First, I cloned Sergbuto's AI U-boats (all type VIIAs) and gave them new class names, also max speeds of 10 knots. These data were copied into a copy of the cfg file for a FW200 bomber, not a U-boat cfg file. Then I cloned the AI U-boat turms, gave them new names, and referenced the new turms in the new AI U-boats. Then I cloned the German large air base, gave it a new name, gave it an altitude of 15 feet, and gave it three squadrons of 6, 6 and 4 AI U-boats. Then I placed the new turns in the \library folder, the new AI U-boats in the *\Air* folder, and the new airbase in the \Land folder.

Second, I went to Mission Editor. The platform library recognises all these changes without difficulty, and it was easy to create a mission with the new German airbase to spawn AI U-boats ('air-boats') placed in mid-ocean, an Allied convoy going in small circles around the airbase, and a player U-boat to approach the convoy.

The mission loaded without any problems, and I sailed my U-boat round and round the convoy, both close and outside convoy spawning range. All the time signalling to BdU (also the convoy signalled its position every three hours). All this was in early 1944, when air attacks are a real threat from the normal airbases.

I saw nothing at all of air-boats, which should have shown up on the map as blue circles after spawning. Nor was the convoy disturbed.

Third, I added the new German airbase, to spawn air-boats, close to Newfoundland where there a lot of convoys in campaign mode. I sailed a U-boat from France out to Newfoundland (January 1944), waited for convoys to arrive close to the new German airbase, and made the same approaches with the U-boat as in Mission Editor.

Again, there was no sign of any air-boats being spawned.
I did all this testing in almost perfect weather conditions, since the airbases never spawn aircraft in bad visibility.

So I cannot demonstrate that this idea works, although the conventional Allied airbases spawned over the U-boat all right, after all the signalling!

One other item of interest - I tried again, after placing roster entries for the new airbase as British, and for the new air-boats as British, and played the original mission again.
Once again, I never saw anything, but this time something definitely saw my U-boat. While close to the new airbase, and far away from any convoy, and sending numerous radio signals while cruising at slowest speed, the game became sluggish (other units nearby), then the stealth meter suddenly went red! Weather conditions were perfect, but there was nothing to see in any direction. I tried to look underwater, but the water was too dark in deep water and it was impossible to tell if there were any submerged U-boats. (Sergbuto's AI U-boats are designed to operate underwater, not on the surface.)
It was possible to shake off the hidden detection by running off at full speed, since the AI air-boats were limited to 10 knots, but then sending out more radio messages resulted in the same phenomenon, being detected by something invisible.
No Allied unit ever appeared on the main map close to the U-boat, although proper aircraft appear on the map.

It has occurred to me that Urfisch's idea might work in principle, but German air-boats perhaps respond only to the convoy signals, but not to those of the U-boat. This makes the idea impracticable, because it would be necessary to make the convoy signal its progress far too often - and there would have to be a lot of air-boat bases in the Atlantic to respond. It might even slow up the game, if every convoy has to struggle across the whole Atlantic attacked by air-boats, while the player is nowhere near. There is also the problem of weapons load-out. My air-boats had a load-out of bombs in their air .cfg file, so they were probably bombing the ocean bed after every attack! But how would you add a load-out of deck-guns or torpedoes?

Time to give up, I think. Pity.

Stiebler.

Hitman · 01-22-09, 04:44 AM

In SH2 we had a similar problem, in that scripting german U-Boat bases to spawn AI U-Boats caused the game to become laggish as battles happened thousands of miles away from the player. I solved that by making the bases attached to the convoy be in fact ALLIED, hence they would only detect the player U-Boat and spawn.....german U-Boats.

Is it possible to attach an allied airbase to a unit in the convoy? That way, when the player gets close the convoy would inmediately detect it and spawn the wolfpack :hmm:

Nevertheless, the first problem to be solved seems to be the effective spawning of the U-Boats. Once this is solved, then it will be time to think how to place them properly in the campaign.

Stiebler · 01-22-09, 05:12 AM

@Hitman,

That is very interesting information about SH2, thanks for this.

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.

If anyone else is interested in experimenting, I could put my cloned units onto Filefront for download. Any requesters must have the skills to add them to mission files or campaign files, though.

Stiebler.

iambecomelife · 01-22-09, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiebler

@Hitman,

That is very interesting information about SH2, thanks for this.

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.

If anyone else is interested in experimenting, I could put my cloned units onto Filefront for download. Any requesters must have the skills to add them to mission files or campaign files, though.

Stiebler.

Yes, please do. I would especially like to check out their DAT and SIM files.

urfisch · 01-22-09, 08:54 AM

nice to see some progress on that! really...would be interesting to see, if this works. and if we keep on trying...we will get it done! as privateer always mentioned: every fail is a further step onto the target.

if i can help, please let me know. but my skills are more graphics, than code.

Stiebler · 01-22-09, 10:35 AM

For those who wish to experiment:

I've uploaded my efforts on wolfpacks-from-airbases as a 7-zip (.7z) file at this address:

http://files.filefront.com/WolfPack7.../fileinfo.html

There is a readme file included.

Please note that this is strictly *EXPERIMENTAL* only, and must be used only by those familiar with creating mission or campaign files.

Good luck, experimenters!

Stiebler.

Awful Smutje · 01-22-09, 11:04 AM

Wow, this is getting interesting!

I hope, that you all can figure this out. This would be a revolution!

I'd wish I could help, but I have no Idea how these files work...
Maybe I do it like Urfisch. Thinking out loud and posting ideas.

biosthetique · 01-22-09, 11:25 AM

I DLed it, which Mod/super Mod did you design it for, ergo on which ones should it be tested on?
Sincerely

Stiebler · 01-23-09, 05:39 AM

@biosthetique:

I've put this package up for download because it does *not* function, not because it does!

I cannot make it function, but since other people have expressed interest in trying to make Urfisch's idea successful, I have given them the building blocks from which to start, so they can make an easy start.

It is not dependent on any mod package, since all the units are uniquely cloned, so can be used with any mod package. But you must know how to create single missions and campaign missions using these starting blocks. It is certain that anyone who lacks these skills will not be able to make this package function, so it is a basic test before people try to use the package.

@Hitman:

I've checked the airbases again in SH3, and unfortunately there seems to be no way of adding German units (of any type, air or sea) to British airbases. SH3 assumes that a British airbase must operate British aircraft, and a German airbase must operate German aircraft. That does make sense, certainly!
So it appears that the option you had in SH2 is not possible with SH3.

Good idea, though. Any more ideas?

Stiebler.

urfisch · 01-23-09, 06:48 AM

hmmm...what was the problem to add bases with ai-boats in the ocean? there was no visible spawn, even you where spotted, right? god damn! there must be a solution for that...

if that is the problem (invisible spawn of units)...how can it be solved? you said, you looked under water and there was nothing too. maybe the boats fly? high above...somewhere? lol...or maybe the have been deep under water, where you couldnt see them? anyway, its interesting, youve been spotted!

i dont know.

VikingGrandad · 01-23-09, 07:07 PM

Very interesting discussion! Would be great if someone managed to crack AI wolf packs, after all these years...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stiebler

It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it.

Something to consider, anyway.

Forgive me if I'm reading too much into what you're saying, but when I read the above I couldn't help but think: could you use that to make SH3's aircraft carriers actually launch planes? Would add a nice touch for carriers in hunter killer groups, or perhaps even other ships that have an aircraft catapult. The number of planes would have to be limited, which perhaps is not possible.

Weiss Pinguin · 01-23-09, 07:31 PM

That was also the first thing that popped into my head when I read that. :hmm:

01-22-09, 04:04 AM	#19
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Can't make it work Urfisch's interesting idea led me to carry out some tests with NYGM. First, I cloned Sergbuto's AI U-boats (all type VIIAs) and gave them new class names, also max speeds of 10 knots. These data were copied into a copy of the cfg file for a FW200 bomber, not a U-boat cfg file. Then I cloned the AI U-boat turms, gave them new names, and referenced the new turms in the new AI U-boats. Then I cloned the German large air base, gave it a new name, gave it an altitude of 15 feet, and gave it three squadrons of 6, 6 and 4 AI U-boats. Then I placed the new turns in the \library folder, the new AI U-boats in the \Air folder, and the new airbase in the \Land folder. Second, I went to Mission Editor. The platform library recognises all these changes without difficulty, and it was easy to create a mission with the new German airbase to spawn AI U-boats ('air-boats') placed in mid-ocean, an Allied convoy going in small circles around the airbase, and a player U-boat to approach the convoy. The mission loaded without any problems, and I sailed my U-boat round and round the convoy, both close and outside convoy spawning range. All the time signalling to BdU (also the convoy signalled its position every three hours). All this was in early 1944, when air attacks are a real threat from the normal airbases. I saw nothing at all of air-boats, which should have shown up on the map as blue circles after spawning. Nor was the convoy disturbed. Third, I added the new German airbase, to spawn air-boats, close to Newfoundland where there a lot of convoys in campaign mode. I sailed a U-boat from France out to Newfoundland (January 1944), waited for convoys to arrive close to the new German airbase, and made the same approaches with the U-boat as in Mission Editor. Again, there was no sign of any air-boats being spawned. I did all this testing in almost perfect weather conditions, since the airbases never spawn aircraft in bad visibility. So I cannot demonstrate that this idea works, although the conventional Allied airbases spawned over the U-boat all right, after all the signalling! One other item of interest - I tried again, after placing roster entries for the new airbase as British, and for the new air-boats as British, and played the original mission again. Once again, I never saw anything, but this time something definitely saw my U-boat. While close to the new airbase, and far away from any convoy, and sending numerous radio signals while cruising at slowest speed, the game became sluggish (other units nearby), then the stealth meter suddenly went red! Weather conditions were perfect, but there was nothing to see in any direction. I tried to look underwater, but the water was too dark in deep water and it was impossible to tell if there were any submerged U-boats. (Sergbuto's AI U-boats are designed to operate underwater, not on the surface.) It was possible to shake off the hidden detection by running off at full speed, since the AI air-boats were limited to 10 knots, but then sending out more radio messages resulted in the same phenomenon, being detected by something invisible. No Allied unit ever appeared on the main map close to the U-boat, although proper aircraft appear on the map. It has occurred to me that Urfisch's idea might work in principle, but German air-boats perhaps respond only to the convoy signals, but not to those of the U-boat. This makes the idea impracticable, because it would be necessary to make the convoy signal its progress far too often - and there would have to be a lot of air-boat bases in the Atlantic to respond. It might even slow up the game, if every convoy has to struggle across the whole Atlantic attacked by air-boats, while the player is nowhere near. There is also the problem of weapons load-out. My air-boats had a load-out of bombs in their air .cfg file, so they were probably bombing the ocean bed after every attack! But how would you add a load-out of deck-guns or torpedoes? Time to give up, I think. Pity. Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

01-22-09, 04:44 AM	#20
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	In SH2 we had a similar problem, in that scripting german U-Boat bases to spawn AI U-Boats caused the game to become laggish as battles happened thousands of miles away from the player. I solved that by making the bases attached to the convoy be in fact ALLIED, hence they would only detect the player U-Boat and spawn.....german U-Boats. Is it possible to attach an allied airbase to a unit in the convoy? That way, when the player gets close the convoy would inmediately detect it and spawn the wolfpack :hmm: Nevertheless, the first problem to be solved seems to be the effective spawning of the U-Boats. Once this is solved, then it will be time to think how to place them properly in the campaign. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

01-22-09, 05:12 AM	#21
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	@Hitman, That is very interesting information about SH2, thanks for this. It is certainly possible to have in SH3 a scripted, moving airbase that can spawn aircraft. I experimented with that some time ago, but couldn't find a use for it. Something to consider, anyway. If anyone else is interested in experimenting, I could put my cloned units onto Filefront for download. Any requesters must have the skills to add them to mission files or campaign files, though. Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

01-22-09, 08:54 AM	#23
urfisch Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Deep down in Germany Posts: 1,969 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	nice to see some progress on that! really...would be interesting to see, if this works. and if we keep on trying...we will get it done! as privateer always mentioned: every fail is a further step onto the target. if i can help, please let me know. but my skills are more graphics, than code. __________________

01-22-09, 10:35 AM	#24
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	For those who wish to experiment: I've uploaded my efforts on wolfpacks-from-airbases as a 7-zip (.7z) file at this address: http://files.filefront.com/WolfPack7.../fileinfo.html There is a readme file included. Please note that this is strictly EXPERIMENTAL only, and must be used only by those familiar with creating mission or campaign files. Good luck, experimenters! Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

01-20-09, 10:53 AM	#17
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	No, it acted like a plane in the first test (it WAS a plane, just a different 3d model. Dunno about sh3, but in sh4 you can simply point the cfg at a different model path, and boom, it uses it. The 2d experiment, actually changed the sim of the plane so that it would drive around on the water. It was none the less a PLANE, and acted like one, just not flying (hence "airboat" ) The goal in my experiments was a boat that would happily drop the fully functional AI air torpedo in sh4.

01-22-09, 11:04 AM	#25
Awful Smutje Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Germany, about 200km upwards the Weser from bunker "Valentin" Posts: 125 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Wow, this is getting interesting! I hope, that you all can figure this out. This would be a revolution! I'd wish I could help, but I have no Idea how these files work... Maybe I do it like Urfisch. Thinking out loud and posting ideas. __________________ Fette Beute und immer eine Handbreit Wasser unter dem Kiel!

01-22-09, 11:25 AM	#26
biosthetique Lieutenant Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: SD Posts: 266 Downloads: 652 Uploads: 0	I DLed it, which Mod/super Mod did you design it for, ergo on which ones should it be tested on? Sincerely

01-23-09, 05:39 AM	#27
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	@biosthetique: I've put this package up for download because it does not function, not because it does! I cannot make it function, but since other people have expressed interest in trying to make Urfisch's idea successful, I have given them the building blocks from which to start, so they can make an easy start. It is not dependent on any mod package, since all the units are uniquely cloned, so can be used with any mod package. But you must know how to create single missions and campaign missions using these starting blocks. It is certain that anyone who lacks these skills will not be able to make this package function, so it is a basic test before people try to use the package. @Hitman: I've checked the airbases again in SH3, and unfortunately there seems to be no way of adding German units (of any type, air or sea) to British airbases. SH3 assumes that a British airbase must operate British aircraft, and a German airbase must operate German aircraft. That does make sense, certainly! So it appears that the option you had in SH2 is not possible with SH3. Good idea, though. Any more ideas? Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

01-23-09, 06:48 AM	#28
urfisch Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Deep down in Germany Posts: 1,969 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	hmmm...what was the problem to add bases with ai-boats in the ocean? there was no visible spawn, even you where spotted, right? god damn! there must be a solution for that... if that is the problem (invisible spawn of units)...how can it be solved? you said, you looked under water and there was nothing too. maybe the boats fly? high above...somewhere? lol...or maybe the have been deep under water, where you couldnt see them? anyway, its interesting, youve been spotted! i dont know. __________________

01-23-09, 07:31 PM	#30
Weiss Pinguin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Auburn, Alabama Posts: 3,333 Downloads: 101 Uploads: 0	That was also the first thing that popped into my head when I read that. :hmm: __________________