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Old 11-18-2017, 09:34 AM   #1
Barleyman
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Default Practical torpedo evasion

Now that I've got a bit bored with the moderately arcadey Cold Waters I felt like going back to DW for a while. I got the DVD and printed manual.. Somewhere.. But I guess I might as well as buy the steam version instead of trying to locate the correct box in the garage.

So about torpedo evasion. I've seen the generic guides which more or less say to drop a noise maker and clear datum at an angle. Too bad you die that way. In CW you can see how difficult it is to evade a torpedo even when you have a perfect eye of God view of the situation. In DW you have none such unless you do a TMA on a live torpedo bearing down on you.. Good luck with that.

So, has someone made a guide on how to do it with what you have in the simulation? I presume you should work with the active intercept tool to determine if the torpedo is bearing right at you or veering to a side to go around a noise maker?

Last edited by Barleyman; 11-18-2017 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 11-18-2017, 10:57 AM   #2
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I just wanted to point out there are other options besides Steam.

https://www.amazon.com/Dangerous-Wat...AW5BE2224A1P4F



If a torp has already aquired you in DW your options are limited. Drop counter measures, change depth and heading, go to flank and keep your fingers crossed.

Its much better to jink as soon as you hear the launch transient. One move I've used in the past is to jink towards the transient bearing and offset it about 30-45 degrees. You're changing the bearing rapidly and also closing on the platform that launched at you, hopefully you can put the torp behind you and travelling in the wrong direction when it goes active.
This is kind of the opposite of a "side step" where you change heading but try to put some distance on the other sub.
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Old 11-18-2017, 12:22 PM   #3
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No shame in using auto-TMA in a torpedo-pinging situation to try and figure out where it is. Too many things going on for you to just focus on that. When the torpedo is launched, you may be able to see it on the broadband. If your sonar has a waterfall, you can watch the track of the torpedo. If it's maintaining a constant bearing (or pretty close to constant), there's a good chance the torpedo is heading straight for you. If it's blatantly veering to the left or right, odds are it was not shot at you.

The running at an angle is meant to minimize your active sonar cross section with respect to the torpedo. The optimum angle depends on torpedo speed and your evasion speed, but the ideal angle is around 120 degrees away from the bearing to the torpedo.
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Old 11-18-2017, 01:30 PM   #4
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I actually did take a shot at locating the game disk and more importantly that spiral bound manual. No joy there but now I have more room in the garage and shortlisted some boxes for "recycling".

The game was cheaper on steam for what it's worth. Let's see if I still remember how to play. Hah.

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Old 11-18-2017, 01:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSchazly View Post
No shame in using auto-TMA in a torpedo-pinging situation to try and figure out where it is. Too many things going on for you to just focus on that. When the torpedo is launched, you may be able to see it on the broadband. If your sonar has a waterfall, you can watch the track of the torpedo. If it's maintaining a constant bearing (or pretty close to constant), there's a good chance the torpedo is heading straight for you. If it's blatantly veering to the left or right, odds are it was not shot at you.

The running at an angle is meant to minimize your active sonar cross section with respect to the torpedo. The optimum angle depends on torpedo speed and your evasion speed, but the ideal angle is around 120 degrees away from the bearing to the torpedo.
That's what I meant by the running at an angle. It doesn't work if the torpedo has made you.
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Old 11-19-2017, 01:14 AM   #6
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Or..






You'll notice this was Chazley back before he learned how to shave.

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Old 11-19-2017, 01:06 PM   #7
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Or..






You'll notice this was Chazley back before he learned how to shave.

Also before he got the camera properly focused on the paper..

Anyways, the problem with these video presentations is that you can summarize the important equations in a web page that takes 2 min to take in instead of watching the whole 17min presentation.. But yeah, that's what skipping is for to get to the good stuff. But a decent presentation none the less! I just wish USN used metrics


In any case that's also a bit besides the point, you're outrunning the torpedo by brute strength, not evading it.
Do note that this is absolutely no help on ASW missile torpedoes and/or helo torpedoes. In CW you *can* actually evade them but then again you have perfect situational awareness and still you can judge your turns wrong and get whacked. I'm using no knuckles mod, I don't think they really exist, do they?

I was speculating in OP that you might be able to do similar evasion on keeping your eyes peeled on the active intercept to judge the torpedo movement.
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Old 11-19-2017, 02:13 PM   #8
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The best way to evade a torpedo in DW, CW, or real life is not to be near it.

Don't focus on being Rambo in an ambush. Instead, focus on being sneaky well before you open the muzzle door.

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Old 11-19-2017, 03:00 PM   #9
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BTW, if you think I'm being cagey- wait until you install Reinforce Alert in DW.

Things are a LOT harder now, no one has a tactical advantage. I've gone back to the basics to try and figure out some new strategy.

In real life I qualified on a diesel boat then went to a 688 and RA is still kicking my backsides.

Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense.
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:26 PM   #10
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My simple guide for beginers



Other important thing is strengh of signal. Some submarines have it in Active intercept station. Last 3 (red one) lights means - you have trouble.

Some subs have long range HF (ex: russian SSN) - it is good tool for ranging danger:

1) mark
2) see it on map
3) place own mark "+" (enter)
4) delete from map original "HF mark"
5) go to HF station and mark again
...and so on

OFC it helps when your sub is heading to enemy

Evading is quite complex thing. You need experience and luck. In MP session enemy player can guide torpedo via wire - remember that!
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Old 11-19-2017, 04:34 PM   #11
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Knuckles definitely exist IRL and are well documented.

They are too effective in Cold Waters because somehow, somewhere, turn-induced loss of speed disappeared so it is too easy to create *lots* of them, whereas you should be able to create one but loose a lot of speed in the process.

In Fast Attack, I would always plot the incoming torpedo as heading on the reciprocal bearing from where it was detected, then go flank and turn 100 degrees to the track. If they had not gone active, you could easily evade them. Evading an active weapon that had a lock on you took much manuevering and several decoys, and you were by no means guaranteed to survive.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
BTW, if you think I'm being cagey- wait until you install Reinforce Alert in DW.

Things are a LOT harder now, no one has a tactical advantage. I've gone back to the basics to try and figure out some new strategy.

In real life I qualified on a diesel boat then went to a 688 and RA is still kicking my backsides.

Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense.
I already did put it in. I started with 688 Hunter Killer so vanilla doesn't quite do it for me. I had forgotten about these tricks with key values in floor and magic button sequences to alter behaviour..

This is just something of an ongoing gripe, I've read all these "torpedo evasion" guides but none really address the scenario when you get a splashdown etc. I know it's a bad situation but at least there should be some sort of SOP for up to the creek without a paddle scenario.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7p8 View Post
My simple guide for beginers



Other important thing is strengh of signal. Some submarines have it in Active intercept station. Last 3 (red one) lights means - you have trouble.

Some subs have long range HF (ex: russian SSN) - it is good tool for ranging danger:

1) mark
2) see it on map
3) place own mark "+" (enter)
4) delete from map original "HF mark"
5) go to HF station and mark again
...and so on

OFC it helps when your sub is heading to enemy

Evading is quite complex thing. You need experience and luck. In MP session enemy player can guide torpedo via wire - remember that!
Naah mp.. It's bad enough being humiliated by the machine.

Anyways this kind of manouvering was what I had in mind.

So when you do that AND the torpedo goes around/through the noisemaker and reacquires? You would have it behind you with presumably flank speed at that time..
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:32 AM   #14
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One other thing you can try if you're new or coming back to DW, open your mission editor and create a very basic mission of just you in the sub you want to play. Start the mission and flog the snot out of your boat. Get to where you have a really good "feel" for how your boat operates. Find your preferred numbers for things like going to PD, raising the radio and ESM masts, etc.
Run at different depths and speeds. Where do you cavitate? When does your sonar wash out? When are you leaving a wake near PD? How quickly can you change depth at a given speed?

Then change the mission to include a surface contact and practice tracking them. Try changing your ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS as you practice tracking your contact.
Then, add a sub and track both contacts.

Start a new mission that's just you vs a patrol plane and a helo. Set the ROE to "peacetime" at first, you'll know if they can track you when you replay the mission. Then change it so they'll shoot at you.

Last, practice launching weps at your contacts.

Building up your skill over time is actually very realistic. IRL, crews will practice for weeks prior to a deployment.
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
...
Oh, on the whole nautical mile vs kilometers thing- look at how a nautical mile is defined. As long as there are 24 hours in a day, knots make more sense.
If you research both then you'll find out they are derived from the same basis. Just a different subdivision. (and not related to time at all)

Last edited by Pisces; 11-20-2017 at 12:32 PM.
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