Which mod Mk 37 do we have?

[Capt Jack Harkness]

So I noticed in one of the recent beta patches it looks like the Mk 37 model was changed a bit then I looked up some images and found that there are apparently short and long Mk 37s and the short version is what is in game.





Then I read the Wiki and it says that the Mod 1 is longer, heavier and slower than the Mod 0 but has wire guidance (no data on how much slower). Then in 1967 they started converting the Mod 0 into Mod 3 and the Mod 1 into Mod 2, which was a seeker change that improved acquisition from 700 to 1000 yards. This makes the Mod 3 the short torpedo with a better seeker and the Mod 2 the longer, wire-guided torpedo with a better seeker.

Anyway, given that the game files specify a 950 yard sensor range, it seems that visually we have the Mod 3 short body but wire guidance suggests it should be a Mod 2...

Obviously all the above is nitpicking tiny details that are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things but I thought I'd point it out for accuracy's sake.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack Harkness

So I noticed in one of the recent beta patches it looks like the Mk 37 model was changed a bit then I looked up some images and found that there are apparently short and long Mk 37s and the short version is what is in game.





Then I read the Wiki and it says that the Mod 1 is longer, heavier and slower than the Mod 0 but has wire guidance (no data on how much slower). Then in 1967 they started converting the Mod 0 into Mod 3 and the Mod 1 into Mod 2, which was a seeker change that improved acquisition from 700 to 1000 yards. This makes the Mod 3 the short torpedo with a better seeker and the Mod 2 the longer, wire-guided torpedo with a better seeker.

Anyway, given that the game files specify a 950 yard sensor range, it seems that visually we have the Mod 3 short body but wire guidance suggests it should be a Mod 2...

Obviously all the above is nitpicking tiny details that are not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things but I thought I'd point it out for accuracy's sake.

https://maritime.org/doc/jolie/part2.htm
has a good run-down on both Mk 37 variants although when this was written many specs were still classified.

Mod 2 is basically what's in game, although the process to upgrade from Mod 1 was ongoing. Same with 0/3. I've made all four variants in OAS but I've had to take off the 1s and 0s in many cases because typically the game won't run if you have too many weapons assigned to a platform (somewhere in the neighborhood of 7-8) and these were the most superfluous.

https://maritime.org/doc/torpedomk37/index.htm
good document on the Mk 37C, while a lot of stuff for this weapon is a bit after 68, it makes a lot of references to legacy Mk37 capabilities.

https://maritime.org/doc/oberon/weapons/part3.htm
https://maritime.org/doc/torpedo-qual-mk37/index.htm

A lot of good stuff in these two as well.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Lots of good stuff! I had seen the Mk 37C manual but not the others.

[CaptainCruise]

I'm not a mod or weapons expert, but from what I just read the Mk37C looks like the best we can hope to do using these particular weapons playing 1968 missions and campaigns. After the upgrades they did it's not the worst weapon we could have, tho it tries to be.

Anyway, what about the other 1968 torp, the Mk17 I believe it is? That one is basically a WW2 leftover. Did we really use those things in our early nuke boats back in the 60's? How the heck did we hit anything especially a submerged sub?!? I would imagine they did some sort off mod to the torp as a stopgap until the Mk48 was developed. Curious to hear your thoughts.....

Thanks...
Tom "CC"

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

Anyway, what about the other 1968 torp, the Mk17 I believe it is? That one is basically a WW2 leftover. Did we really use those things in our early nuke boats back in the 60's? How the heck did we hit anything especially a submerged sub?!? I would imagine they did some sort off mod to the torp as a stopgap until the Mk48 was developed. Curious to hear your thoughts.....

Thanks...
Tom "CC"

Your thinking of the Mk 16, and you are partially right, they were a little bit more sophisticated vs. what is currently in the game, they had a pattern-running mod added to them some time shortly after WW2 (similar to the German FaT and LuT torpedoes) although I'm not sure of the exact nature of the patterns (circle, long and short legs, bearing restrictions ect.)

However, for the most part, the intended primary anti-ship torpedo was the straight running Mk 16, with the even older WW2 era Mk 14 (which had all the infamous exploder and depth control issues for the early part of the war) being brought back into service I believe due to serviceability issues / low numbers of Mk 16.

While at some points early after the war there were other guided torpedoes (off the top of my head the small Mk 27 Cutie, the Mk 39 which was a wire-guided Cutie, Mk 35 active homer, and finally the Mk 28 which was based on the wartime Mk 18 electric torpedo) some of which were bigger than the Mk 37, I think they were all slower and shorter ranged and all out of service by 1960. Another thing to note is that basically ALL of these were considered "anti-escort" weapons in a similar vein to the German T4 GNAT homing torpedo.

The only reasoning I can come up with to support this line of development / thinking was that, from the time the USS Nautilus was introduced, in wargames and testing, American nuclear submarines were essentially Spiderman (you didn't know what he was going to do next or where he was going to be and you sure couldn't catch him). This was especially true with the Skipjack which basically made a fool out of an entire CVBG escort. Again, the line of thinking seems to be that submarines could fight their way through anything small enough to require a homing torpedo and set themselves up to fire straight-runners / pattern runners at anything bigger, like a cruisers or support / amphibs.

The important thing to dwell on here though is that almost all of these exercises were against ASW forces using RBU type ahead throwing mortar weapons like Mouse and Weapon Alfa (but probably less effective) and among other things lead to the creation / acceleration of ASROC and the Mk 46 torpedo along with better sonar for escorts. From what I can tell though, this perceived superiority of american submarines, coupled with the Soviets developing high-performing weapons and systems much sooner than expected lead to the somewhat perilous situation of having something less than satisfactory (the Mk 37) as your primary weapon for so many years (1960s through to the early-to mid 70s before the Mk 48 was fully accepted into service).

As far as the interim solution you speak of, that is exactly why the Mk 45 ASTOR, which is a brutally simple solution to this problem, was quickly developed in the late 1950s. Because of speed and diving depth issues, it was feared that the Mk 37 would be quite ineffective and have a very low kill probability vs. Soviet nuclear boats. Solution, nuclear torpedo which guarantees a kill within 4500 yards probably / possibly more depending on some conditions. Obviously there are all kinds of flaws here (namely that the use of such a weapon would trigger a nuclear war, along with the fact that it quite possibly would take the firing sub to the bottom right along with the Russian) but from what I can tell that was the thinking behind producing and deploying this weapon, and why they retired it so quick once the Mk 48 was in service.

[longface]

Similar question: which variant of the Mk48s are in the vanilla '84 campaign? Would they be mod 3 or 4?

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by CaptainCruise

I'm not a mod or weapons expert, but from what I just read the Mk37C looks like the best we can hope to do using these particular weapons playing 1968 missions and campaigns.

Well if you're into stretching reality, anyhow... The Mk 37C was basically competing for the contract that the Mk 48 won, and they were still in development by the time the Mk 48 Mod 1 entered service in '72.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by longface

Similar question: which variant of the Mk48s are in the vanilla '84 campaign? Would they be mod 3 or 4?

Realistically the Mod 3, although one of its key features TELCOM (two-way communication back through the wire, so the torpedo's sonar functions as a sensor input for the firing ship's FC system) isn't modeled as far as I know.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Capt Jack Harkness

Well if you're into stretching reality, anyhow... The Mk 37C was basically competing for the contract that the Mk 48 won, and they were still in development by the time the Mk 48 Mod 1 entered service in '72.

This is kind of true but the two were never really put head to head against each other. The Mk 48 Mod 0 and Mod 2 which lost to the Mod 1 version used a Sunstrand turbine similar to what would eventually power the British Spearfish and other than that (and some differences with their respective sonar system) the three were broadly similar.

The 37C has a bit more of a humble beginning starting as improvements suggested by the Mk 37 manufacturer (Westinghouse or Honeywell) who had become quite aware of how much it was lagging behind. They did a demonstration for the navy of an Otto powered Mk 37 and development continued.

Something to add to all of this as well, I've so far not really been able to find many details about the the Mk37C / D / NT-37 in USN service, other than the fact that they were used. The Mk 37 was kept around until 1985 when the USS Darter was decommissioned. Prior to this the weapons were in service aboard all remaining submarines with rear-torpedo tubes (remaining Tang class, USS Darter and the Skate class) as these were the only weapons that could be used by their aft-tubes.

[Julhelm]

I think we model telecom, but only when the weapon is terminally homing.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I think we model telecom, but only when the weapon is terminally homing.

Is this because the seeker is technically "off" before it's enabled?

[Julhelm]

Yes.

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

I think we model telecom, but only when the weapon is terminally homing.

That's interesting, that explains why the target is still so prominent despite all the noisemakers and everything. I think it would be good to feature TELCOM in the enabled / non-terminal state (blue cone) but that would bring some game-play concerns (i.e. you could just launch out activated torpedoes to function as a sensor to see what's out there).

[longface]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

That's interesting, that explains why the target is still so prominent despite all the noisemakers and everything. I think it would be good to feature TELCOM in the enabled / non-terminal state (blue cone) but that would bring some game-play concerns (i.e. you could just launch out activated torpedoes to function as a sensor to see what's out there).

That would be an extremely loud and indiscreet way of scouting, but I suppose.

[Capt Jack Harkness]

Originally Posted by The Bandit

That's interesting, that explains why the target is still so prominent despite all the noisemakers and everything. I think it would be good to feature TELCOM in the enabled / non-terminal state (blue cone) but that would bring some game-play concerns (i.e. you could just launch out activated torpedoes to function as a sensor to see what's out there).

This is functioning, as far as I know. Torpedo sonar and telecom is not working prior to being enabled.