Realism in Dangerous Waters.

van der Merwe · 01-22-10, 11:51 PM

I'm not sure if there is already a thread like this, there probably is, but I've been wondering alot lately how accurately the stations in Dangerous Waters are simulated. I know they are simplified somewhat, but I'm just wondering what is left out, or how accurate to their real world counterparts are the displays. If anyone out there could answer these questions or give me a link to a thread or website that could, I would greatly appretiate it, thank you.

Castout · 01-23-10, 12:22 AM

I myself have always wondered how the real submariners determine a sound contact depth. . . .it's always 2D in DW. Perhaps the sonars pick up a a space directional signal?

goldorak · 01-23-10, 05:45 AM

Have a look at Sierra Fast Attack, a dos game published over 15 years ago. It is entirely devoted to the 688 Los Angeles and has the most realistic 2d stations ever. You can read the subsim review.

Deamon · 01-23-10, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by van der Merwe

I'm not sure if there is already a thread like this, there probably is, but I've been wondering alot lately how accurately the stations in Dangerous Waters are simulated. I know they are simplified somewhat, but I'm just wondering what is left out, or how accurate to their real world counterparts are the displays. If anyone out there could answer these questions or give me a link to a thread or website that could, I would greatly appretiate it, thank you.

Sonalysts work as a contractor for the military and they were ordered to water down the consoles. So it is not overly authentic.

Goldorak is right, Fast attack is probably the most authentic representation available.

Dr.Sid · 01-23-10, 06:05 PM

Google a little, you can find photos of real stations here and then. It's not overly realistic. But as long as you don't intend to driver real boat, there is no need.
Today generally all stations look like MS Word. Common computer program interface.

van der Merwe · 01-23-10, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

Have a look at Sierra Fast Attack, a dos game published over 15 years ago. It is entirely devoted to the 688 Los Angeles and has the most realistic 2d stations ever. You can read the subsim review.

I took a look at it and I was pretty impressed. I downloaded a ROM of it, but I can't get it to work, something to do with my sound system, which is a shame because it looks really interesting.

Castout · 01-24-10, 01:42 AM

I tried it today one of my core was heavily used during the game....it must have been a very good game for its time but DW is sooo far ahead in terms of everything making it rather obsolete....however I appreciate the detailed 2D interface like I said it must have been a very good game indeed.

goldorak · 01-24-10, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by van der Merwe

I took a look at it and I was pretty impressed. I downloaded a ROM of it, but I can't get it to work, something to do with my sound system, which is a shame because it looks really interesting.

The ROM has never worked in dos box.
If you buy the original cd second hand, you'll find that the full game actually works beautifully under dos box, sound, animations and all that.

van der Merwe · 01-24-10, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

The ROM has never worked in dos box.
If you buy the original cd second hand, you'll find that the full game actually works beautifully under dos box, sound, animations and all that.

Alright, I'll definitely try that. The ROM i got came with some emulator to run it, but it doesnt work.

TLAM Strike · 02-01-10, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Castout

I myself have always wondered how the real submariners determine a sound contact depth. . . .it's always 2D in DW. Perhaps the sonars pick up a a space directional signal?

Hi you asked about how a submarine determines a sonar contact's depth. Well here are a few photos from TimmyG00 and one of mine that help to explain. The BQQ-5 Spherical Array (or any spherical/cylindrical array like the MGK-400EM) can determine the direction the sound waves by which hydrophones detects the noise first. There is a indicator on the sonar panel that displays that data for the selected contact.

^A hydrophone goes in each of those holes. A computer knows which hydrophone is pointing up and which is pointing down and can determine which is hearing the target first.

goldorak · 02-01-10, 02:36 PM

@ Tlam : can the computer determine tha depth of the contact using also the towed array or is it a technique that can be used solely with the spherical array ?

TLAM Strike · 02-01-10, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldorak

@ Tlam : can the computer determine tha depth of the contact using also the towed array or is it a technique that can be used solely with the spherical array ?

Not sure but i think it would be effected by the mirror contact problem we all know from DW.

Delareon · 02-01-10, 03:44 PM

i dont know about the RL thing but it must be possible.
I think it must be possible if i have the followong information:
The bearing of the contact,
comes the sound from my top or bottom
and most important the distance.

With this variables it should be possible to calculate the target depth.
So i think its possible, maybe not 100% accurate this method but it should work, maybe just classified.

Dr.Sid · 02-01-10, 03:53 PM

That should only be possible for sphere array. Towed array only measures angle from array axis. The beam on towed array defines cone on which surface the target lies.
Due to mirror effect you can't tell if the target is 20 degrees left of the axis or 20 degrees right. But it may also be 20 degrees down and the results would still be the same.
This should be no big problem anyway. You have towed array for distant targets, and those will be very close to 0 elevation. For closer targets you have sphere array and that can show elevation.
I've seen some pictures of current sonar suites and they even used 4 waterfalls each for specific elevation range. I've heard they are called DE-EL plots - depression elevation plot. One waterfall was for let's sat +5 to +30, then one for +5 to -5, next of -5 to -15, last for -15 to -30.
But you could also get specific elevation for every broadband/narrow band contact.
Anyway, submarines are mostly 2D problem. You detect targets at 10miles, sometimes at 100 miles. If something is 3 miles, it's considered VERY close. But you can't go deeper than mile .. most subs not even a half of that. Most torpedoes on the other hand can go to any depth submarines can go. So depth really has little effect.

Snow White Sorrow · 02-14-10, 10:40 AM

I was wondering about this topic for years, thanks for enlightening me.

This might be a wierd place to ask but I do need a hand in TMA and info management. Thought to see if anyone was interested in a friendly coop MP session of DW.

Well that is one rather realistic aspect of Dangerous Waters - information overload.

01-22-10, 11:51 PM	#1
van der Merwe Swabbie Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 9 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Realism in Dangerous Waters. I'm not sure if there is already a thread like this, there probably is, but I've been wondering alot lately how accurately the stations in Dangerous Waters are simulated. I know they are simplified somewhat, but I'm just wondering what is left out, or how accurate to their real world counterparts are the displays. If anyone out there could answer these questions or give me a link to a thread or website that could, I would greatly appretiate it, thank you.

01-23-10, 12:22 AM	#2
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	I myself have always wondered how the real submariners determine a sound contact depth. . . .it's always 2D in DW. Perhaps the sonars pick up a a space directional signal? __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/

01-23-10, 06:05 PM	#5
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Google a little, you can find photos of real stations here and then. It's not overly realistic. But as long as you don't intend to driver real boat, there is no need. Today generally all stations look like MS Word. Common computer program interface. __________________ ComSubSim forum at CADC

01-24-10, 01:42 AM	#7
Castout Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jakarta Posts: 4,794 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 6	I tried it today one of my core was heavily used during the game....it must have been a very good game for its time but DW is sooo far ahead in terms of everything making it rather obsolete....however I appreciate the detailed 2D interface like I said it must have been a very good game indeed. __________________ My blog: http://exposingsingapore.wordpress.com/

02-01-10, 03:53 PM	#14
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	That should only be possible for sphere array. Towed array only measures angle from array axis. The beam on towed array defines cone on which surface the target lies. Due to mirror effect you can't tell if the target is 20 degrees left of the axis or 20 degrees right. But it may also be 20 degrees down and the results would still be the same. This should be no big problem anyway. You have towed array for distant targets, and those will be very close to 0 elevation. For closer targets you have sphere array and that can show elevation. I've seen some pictures of current sonar suites and they even used 4 waterfalls each for specific elevation range. I've heard they are called DE-EL plots - depression elevation plot. One waterfall was for let's sat +5 to +30, then one for +5 to -5, next of -5 to -15, last for -15 to -30. But you could also get specific elevation for every broadband/narrow band contact. Anyway, submarines are mostly 2D problem. You detect targets at 10miles, sometimes at 100 miles. If something is 3 miles, it's considered VERY close. But you can't go deeper than mile .. most subs not even a half of that. Most torpedoes on the other hand can go to any depth submarines can go. So depth really has little effect. __________________ ComSubSim forum at CADC

01-23-10, 05:45 AM	#3
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Have a look at Sierra Fast Attack, a dos game published over 15 years ago. It is entirely devoted to the 688 Los Angeles and has the most realistic 2d stations ever. You can read the subsim review.

02-01-10, 02:36 PM	#11
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	@ Tlam : can the computer determine tha depth of the contact using also the towed array or is it a technique that can be used solely with the spherical array ?

02-01-10, 03:44 PM	#13
Delareon Planesman Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 192 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 0	i dont know about the RL thing but it must be possible. I think it must be possible if i have the followong information: The bearing of the contact, comes the sound from my top or bottom and most important the distance. With this variables it should be possible to calculate the target depth. So i think its possible, maybe not 100% accurate this method but it should work, maybe just classified.

02-14-10, 10:40 AM	#15
Snow White Sorrow Sailor man Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 50 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I was wondering about this topic for years, thanks for enlightening me. This might be a wierd place to ask but I do need a hand in TMA and info management. Thought to see if anyone was interested in a friendly coop MP session of DW. Well that is one rather realistic aspect of Dangerous Waters - information overload. __________________ "A spoken word is a fired torpedo"