Any tank sims that let you play a Panther?

[Akula]

I was hoping that there might be mods available that add a playable Panther out there.

Is there anything like that?

Thanks,
G

[frinik]

Unfortunately Gian right now the only tank sim which allows you to use the Panther is Panzer Elite.There´s one POanther mod in Steel Fury but it´s not easily available because of copy rights issues( the model was borrowed from >Red Orchestra withotu permisison).I have it but it´s only one mission so far.But in the near future it will be coming.

As for TvsT ZeeWolf who created the just released Kursk mod has nice panthers but currently there´s no playable only AI.In the near future though he promises to make them playable.So you may want to join his release.Check the Kursk threads for more details.

I uunderstand your quest as the Panther is my favoiurite tank much more than the TIgers I or II.

Checks ZeeWolf´s website re the Kursk release as well.It´s spectacular.Don´t miss the boat,

Cheers

frinik

[Richard G]

Red Orchastra has a polular mod called Darkest Hour (more popular than the original game in fact). Has every tank and tank destroyer you can think of, Panther A, and Panther G included.

[frinik]

Red Orchestra is primarily a Multi Player game though.Very limited SP-wise and I read that the AI is dumb enough to make you cry....

[Stiglr]

frinik wrote:

Red Orchestra is primarily a Multi Player game though.Very limited SP-wise

Actually, frinik, I'd call that a benefit rather than a detriment.

In fact, the single worst thing you can say about SFK42 is that it has no multi-player component.

Boxed scenarios are almost always inferior to the potential of online action, because AI, no matter how well designed cannot substitute for human cunning. Now, it can definitely be said that poorly designed online servers can make that mode of play just as "stupid" as bad AI in a "boxed" scenario... but most online titles at least provide the basic tools for a much better environment. After that, I'd say that developers need to guide users much better in realiziing that potential, since without good direction, the hosts of online servers don't do a very good job of creatiing historical scenarios.

[Stiglr]

Now... back to the original request for Panthers....


Why is it that, when it comes to armor, everyone seems to gravitate to the biggest late-war monsters, and there seems to be almost no interest at all in the models that, while much less well-armored and with much less effective guns, still did the heavy liftiing through much of the war?

With the ability to stand off at 2.5km and plink nearly everything... and armor thick enough to resist a nuke , how much are you really going to learn about armored tactics in these behemoths?

I think it would be much more interesting to have to cut one's teeth in a Skoda, or a PzII infantry support, or suffer the anguish of an early British tank with a measly two-pounder... and move through the sublime PzIVs with long and short barrels... experience the pros and cons of the Sherman tank....

Doesn't anyone like a challenge? Why always go directly for the ueber-example of every tank or aircraft?

[ZeeWolf]

Excellent point Stiglr

ZeeWolf

[frinik]

Stiglir, the yearning for something better, stronger or faster is basic human nature. I'd rather personally drive a Panther that can prevail on the battlefield than feel the anguish of a Panzer IIC driver in his lightly armoured coffin. It's not the matter of wanting an Ueber anything to satisfy my ego it's plain simple logic and the survival instinct.Light tanks are cute and can be useful against lightly armed infantry and machine gun nests but let's face it they can be blown up by anything bigger than a 20 mm gun or by a grenade.Than tank was designed with the idea of gaining battlefield supremacy not for crews to experience angst or with the study of human phobias in mind...That being said I love the Panzer IVF2 and the T34 on the Soviet side was also quite good without beign a heavy hitter.

If you were give the choice or the money would you rather drive a VW Golf or a Porsche Cayenne?A Corolla or a Landcruiser?

I understand that some players are attracted to APCs or smaller tank models. It's their choice and their right.But I don't see anything wrong about wanting to play more powerful machines either.Actually, I much prefer the Panther to the Ueber panzer by excellence the Panzer VI Ausf. B (Tiger II or KingTiger) or to the Tiger I.Surviving swarms of incoming T34/85, KV1 and 2s, JS2s, at a ratio of 4 to 1 or more is enough of a challenge.

Anyway it's just a matter of what makes one tick....

Cheers

[Task Force]

I myself like the German heavy tanks, I think they look best, out of all the tanks of the war. (even tho when it comes to tanks its not the looks that matter. lol)
Ive always wanted a WW2 tank sim with a dynamic campaign... maby someday.

[ZeeWolf]

Excellent point frinik And Task force there is one coming that has me
worked up

Cheers

ZW

[frinik]

Task Force, ZeeWolf is beta testing his Kursk mod which promises a very exciting and challenging Tank sim campaign with may missions and eventually all Eastern Front major theatres/battles. Check the earlier threads or Master Zee Wolf's website for more details.There are 30 or more of us members of his club.Don't miss the boat and enrol!

Uncle Zee Wants you!

Cheers

[Friedrich-Wilhelm]

HI All,

I have been following this thread with interest and it brought to mind a few thoughts I had about armour-related computer games a while ago. The majority of WW II games seem to focus on Late-War European scenarios, such as Normandy, or the Battle of the Bulge. In that regard, I thought that Steel Fury-Kharkov 1942 was a refreshing change with its mid-war Eastern front focus, including many light and medium tanks. Don't get me wrong, I like the Panthers and Tigers just as much as the next guy. However, I would find it interesting to have a tank simulation, where the player (German side) starts the Polish campaign in 1939 in a Panzer I, France, 1940 and Africa, 1941 in a Panzer II, maybe a Panzer III for El Alamein. Then, the player could move on to the Eastern front, starting in a 38t, then moving on to a Panzer III for the Battle of Kursk. For the defence against the Soviet summer offensive of 1944 (Operation Bagration), the player could be in a Panzer IV with the long 75 mmm. Then, switch to the Western front: Normandy in the same Panzer IV, the Battle of the Bulge in a Panzer IV Ausf.H, then on to the Battle of Berlin, or the Ruhr-Kessel in a Panther.
It seems to me that, especially in the English-speaking world, there is almost an obsession with the mystique of the Tiger tanks. Every Western-Front game has to have its Tigers, it seems. However, there were only relatively few of them built and deployed, while the real work horses of German armour were the Panzer III and Panzer IV, the latter right up to the end of the war. Perhaps, computer games could reflect that. I do appreciate the efforts of game developers and modders to give us various playable Tiger models. I just feel that there is almost an over-emphasis on those, while medium tanks like the Panzer III, Panzer IV and Panther get overlooked and under-appreciated.
Just my two cents.

Cheers,

FW

[frinik]

All points of view are valid( I am such a glib fence-sitter I ought to be an politician...)

I think the over emphasis of late Western European battle theatres in tanksims or games is simply a matter of marketing logic. Most US/UK and a majority of Western European clients/players are more interested in these 1944-1945 events than more obscure ones in Poland 1939, France 1940 or those on the East Front.one big reason is Hollywood which has glorified American and to a lesser extent British war exploits ( either real , imaginary(U571) or exaggerated) from 1943 onward. How many American and British war films made since 1945 take place before 1943?20% at the most.Most or 80% take place either on D Day/Normandy, during the Battle of the Bulge, Germany 1945(Remagen or the air bombings over Germany), in Italy 1944( Anzio), or in the case of British films in North Africa from 1941-1943, air raids or about British SAS or spies in occupied Europe in 1944).The same with documentaries on TV or best selling books. How many war films have you seen with an Eastern European or pre 1943 Western European slant?I am not talking about films dealing with the Holocaust or special themes like that. Just plain war movies. The truth is a handful... As a result if it were not for Russian or Ukrainian game developpers nobody would make games like Steel Fury or TvsT because major distributors who often happen to be AngloSaxon simply don't go for that.The one that took on these 2 tanksims; Dutch-based Lighthouse went belly up last year.

You can divide the titles by nationalities. Those dealing with the East Front are either from the former Soviet Union, Germany/Austria or Central Europe. Those dealing with the 1944/45 Western European campaign are mostly US or UK or West European based.

It's a matter of what wants in game. Sheer action, battles,firefights with raw firepower and optimum armour or more tactical, experimental approach focussing on variety and experiencing various phases and types of armour. I personally and unabashedly much prefer the first one without looking down on the second approach.

The Tiger is truly a remarkable example of how good propaganda( by the Germans) was turned into good marketing( by American game makers and marketers) to sell games/books, films.

But again it all comes down to raw power; would you rather drive a Ferrari or a Corolla( with brake and gas pedals working of course)?


Cheerio

[Stiglr]

I suppose my answer to frinik would be, "Doesn't anyone relish a challenge?"

I see this facet in flight sims all the time, and it's just as frustrating there, too. People want to fly the late war ueberplanes before learning fascinating lessons and cutting their teeth in the less capable machines that came before them.

In the flight sim world, it's best encapsulated by the big interest in "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" planes: everybody wants a Me263 Komet or some drawing board wonder, when there's a lot to be learned from flying a FW190A or a Bf109E/F or a /G that doesn't have a 30mm nose gun and underwing pylons.

I don't so much mind the Tigers and Panthers being available as part of the overall experience... I'm just making a point about the "gottawin" mentality that drives players to immediately gravitate to the uebers, and stunting their own development and learning (not to mention, gaining more of an appreciation for why it was nice to drive a Tiger after surviving in a III or a IV for a long time).

It's not too hard to figure out that, if you never have to take a thin(ner) skinned PzIII with a short-barreled gun into combat, you don't have to learn how to survive a battle where you have to maneuver to within 500 meters and create a side- or rear-aspect shot for yourself; no, all you have to do is back into a corner that protects your rear, pick out the binoculars and find targets at 2km away for your 88 to have a go at.

Said another way, "gottawin" is also human nature.

[Stiglr]

Friedrich-Wilhelm wrote:

In that regard, I thought that Steel Fury-Kharkov 1942 was a refreshing change with its mid-war Eastern front focus, including many light and medium tanks.

As was IL-2 Sturmovik, which began its illustrious career with no American planes save for a P-39!!! But the sim was seen as one of high quality, so it sold a lot of boxes before it was expanded to an "anglo-american marketable" planeset.

Of course, the gottawin mentality is prevalent in that game, too, as seen when you go onto HyperLobby. Most of the action is late-war leaning, even though the IL-2 planeset pretty much covers every significant aircraft throughout the entire war. At that point, it becomes the fault of the developer, IMO, for not building enough structure into the sim to GUIDE and EDUCATE the player a bit more.

For example, anyone can build a wonderful historic IL-2 server or scenario: all the tools and the planes are there. But, if no guidance is given, then ignorant players (not stupid, but ignorant in the "not knowing better" sense) will naturally write predictable scenarios involving their favorite ueberplanes.... or they are too lazy to even bother creating good match-ups, they just offer "the whole planeset" which naturally favors the later war planes; the early planes can't be competitive or survive in a server where everyone ELSE will be flying -44 or -45 crates.