Tips in staying undetected attacking surface targets

Falkirion · 09-05-17, 12:22 AM

Either I'm tactically in a disadventagous position or I'm doing something wrong but I always seem to get detected around 10-15k yards away despite running silent and deep as I can once I've ID'd my targets.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, anyone got some tips on remaining undetected long enough for my targets to get into say 7-8k yard range?

Subs are easy enough for me to avoid getting detected passively or actively, just I have trouble with surface escorts.

Napalm42 · 09-05-17, 12:42 PM

I wrote a response in this thread which has some relevance.

More fitting towards this question directly though, are you pointing your contacts (e.g. facing them dead on at relative bearing 000?) The wider profile you expose to active sonar, the easier you are to detect.

Also, make sure you're not in the "duct". Sound travels further in the duct rather than being below the layer. This makes periscope-sighted attacks harder.

Beyond that, how do you set up your attack approaches? Are you broadsides, on the nose, etc.

GeneralGamer · 09-05-17, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

Either I'm tactically in a disadventagous position or I'm doing something wrong but I always seem to get detected around 10-15k yards away despite running silent and deep as I can once I've ID'd my targets.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, anyone got some tips on remaining undetected long enough for my targets to get into say 7-8k yard range?

Subs are easy enough for me to avoid getting detected passively or actively, just I have trouble with surface escorts.

Can you post a pic when you get detected? So important!

Are you beam on to the enemy?
How deep are you?
What are the sound levels, duct layers etc.?
What sub are you driving?
What ships are you in battle against.?
What difficulty level are you playing at?

So many variables. Not enough info in your question.

-Pv- · 09-05-17, 03:47 PM

All the questions and observations posted above are important and appropriate. Since detection and evasion is complex, there is no one answer for you.

I would first direct you toward the installed PDF Manual which has some very good advice together with helpful diagrams for you to consider. See pages 38 through 41 but there are other helpful sections as well.

If you do not have a strong layer boundary, avoiding detection is more difficult. Take a look at your sub's noise specifications. The noisier you are the more difficult.

Consider answering the thoughtful questions posed to you by the others here. They are critical to solving your specific problem.

Next, you have a MOSS. Use it when you have decided it's time to launch your weapons and you think an immediate counter attack is very likely.

Next pointer, start your attack as soon as you get within range. Getting in close enough to get detected by surface ships who are making a huge amount of noise themselves means you are waiting too long to attack or are setting your initial sim start distance too close. Instead of always trying to get closer, watch the Signature Tab with identified surface targets selected and keep CONTACT numbers as low as possible while keeping OWNSHIP numbers as high as possible. There is no fixed safe CONTACT number but increasingly positive numbers are increasingly risky. The further you are when launching the attack, the less likely your transient is detected and if so, the more maneuvering room you have to evade or set up another attack. Your weapons can successfully engage at beyond enemy vessel detection range if you do it right.

If you have the ability to select your sub, there may be quieter boats than your current favorite. Using a quiet one for a while until you gain confidence and experience will help you get past the learning curve.
Before adding the More Playable Sub mod, use the default Narwhal for a while which is the quietest sub in the game. You can almost chew on enemy props with that sub.

Lastly, patience is a virtue. Be willing to take the time to set up an advantage for yourself. Submarine warfare is a slow art culminating in a few minutes of overwhelming calamity.
-Pv-

GeneralGamer · 09-05-17, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

All the questions and observations posted above are important and appropriate. Since detection and evasion is complex, there is no one answer for you.

I would first direct you toward the installed PDF Manual which has some very good advice together with helpful diagrams for you to consider. See pages 38 through 41 but there are other helpful sections as well.

If you do not have a strong layer boundary, avoiding detection is more difficult. Take a look at your sub's noise specifications. The noisier you are the more difficult.

Consider answering the thoughtful questions posed to you by the others here. They are critical to solving your specific problem.

All great advise and well said!!

Next, you have a MOSS. Use it when you have decided it's time to launch your weapons and you think an immediate counter attack is very likely.

Next pointer, start your attack as soon as you get within range. Getting in close enough to get detected by surface ships who are making a huge amount of noise themselves means you are waiting too long to attack or are setting your initial sim start distance too close. Instead of always trying to get closer, watch the Signature Tab with identified surface targets selected and keep CONTACT numbers as low as possible while keeping OWNSHIP numbers as high as possible. There is no fixed safe CONTACT number but increasingly positive numbers are increasingly risky. The further you are when launching the attack, the less likely your transient is detected and if so, the more maneuvering room you have to evade or set up another attack. Your weapons can successfully engage at beyond enemy vessel detection range if you do it right.

If you have the ability to select your sub, there may be quieter boats than your current favorite. Using a quiet one for a while until you gain confidence and experience will help you get past the learning curve.
Before adding the More Playable Sub mod, use the default Narwhal for a while which is the quietest sub in the game. You can almost chew on enemy props with that sub.

Lastly, patience is a virtue. Be willing to take the time to set up an advantage for yourself. Submarine warfare is a slow art culminating in a few minutes of overwhelming calamity.
-Pv-

All great advise and very well said!

Falkirion · 09-05-17, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralGamer

Can you post a pic when you get detected? So important!

Are you beam on to the enemy?
How deep are you?
What are the sound levels, duct layers etc.?
What sub are you driving?
What ships are you in battle against.?
What difficulty level are you playing at?

So many variables. Not enough info in your question.

Running a 688/688i with difficulty set to Realistic. I generally have trouble with landing forces missions so I've got the Kashin/Krivak/Udoloy escorts to deal with as a screen for the landing forces.

Generally my attack tactics for surface forces are as follows.
I start out at 15k yards if I'm confident I can handle it. Do my ID work at PD popping the scope up and down once per target. If I fail to acquire visually I'll drop down to 500 feet/shadow zone and do my signature work there.

As soon as I start hearing the pings I slow/rig for silent running and start presenting the narrowest profile I can to the active source/sources while keeping an eye on the Own ship numbers. Typically at most they'll only get a whiff.

And I just now realize what I've been doing wrong. I'm rushing my attacks to work around real life. Babies don't wait for dad to be done playing his sims!

-Pv- · 09-05-17, 06:52 PM

Understood. With babies on your stern, it's hard to take the time to observe the hole in the defensive screen patturn and wait for the timing to hit the hole when it opens up.

-Pv-

Napalm42 · 09-05-17, 08:13 PM

My big piece of easy advice here, tiny humans aside, is use the Signature window!

That little number when you ID a contact on their sensors should stay negative, if it starts going past 0, prep for combat!

Wiz33 · 09-06-17, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

And I just now realize what I've been doing wrong. I'm rushing my attacks to work around real life. Babies don't wait for dad to be done playing his sims!

Hitting "esc" to bring up the game menu will pause the game ;-P. I usually don't even go to periscope depth and just try to get the contacts to firm up on passive while staying at long range (do a few TMA legs). I then attack the escorts with torps and once they're taken out, I engage the landing supply ships with missiles and dive deep to evade choppers.

GeneralGamer · 09-07-17, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

Running a 688/688i with difficulty set to Realistic. I generally have trouble with landing forces missions so I've got the Kashin/Krivak/Udoloy escorts to deal with as a screen for the landing forces.

Generally my attack tactics for surface forces are as follows.
I start out at 15k yards if I'm confident I can handle it. Do my ID work at PD popping the scope up and down once per target. If I fail to acquire visually I'll drop down to 500 feet/shadow zone and do my signature work there.

As soon as I start hearing the pings I slow/rig for silent running and start presenting the narrowest profile I can to the active source/sources while keeping an eye on the Own ship numbers. Typically at most they'll only get a whiff.

And I just now realize what I've been doing wrong. I'm rushing my attacks to work around real life. Babies don't wait for dad to be done playing his sims!

Ah I see the problem...Never go to periscope depth until you are inside the blue circle. Even then do not pop the scope.

Your mission is best done with total stealth. If you fire a torpedo, plan to have MPA and Helos all over you. And warships. So never fire first as a rule. You are better off saving your small weapons load for the escape. Once you drop off the commandos you can end the mission. But you still need to clear the area. Good Luck

Dodge and weave enemy contacts and minefields.

Avoid getting close to warships, and if you think they are approaching too close make sure you are close to the bottom, turn off your engines. Always go with silent running. If there are no contacts to be seen you may speed up to 10kts max to hurry the mission. If you are at 5kts go to time compression. I have a couple of videos on those missions you can watch. I hope they help.

OH yes try to get way inside the blue circle before dropping off commandos. If you let the go at the edge. your mission will not count.

Falkirion · 09-07-17, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralGamer

Ah I see the problem...Never go to periscope depth until you are inside the blue circle. Even then do not pop the scope.

Your mission is best done with total stealth. If you fire a torpedo, plan to have MPA and Helos all over you. And warships. So never fire first as a rule. You are better off saving your small weapons load for the escape. Once you drop off the commandos you can end the mission. But you still need to clear the area. Good Luck

Dodge and weave enemy contacts and minefields.

Avoid getting close to warships, and if you think they are approaching too close make sure you are close to the bottom, turn off your engines. Always go with silent running. If there are no contacts to be seen you may speed up to 10kts max to hurry the mission. If you are at 5kts go to time compression. I have a couple of videos on those missions you can watch. I hope they help.

OH yes try to get way inside the blue circle before dropping off commandos. If you let the go at the edge. your mission will not count.

Sorry should have clarified. By Landing Forces I meant invasion fleets.
Still yet to get a SEAL mission in my campaigns.

GeneralGamer · 09-08-17, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falkirion

Sorry should have clarified. By Landing Forces I meant invasion fleets.
Still yet to get a SEAL mission in my campaigns.

No problem. I misread your post.

I would still avoid using the periscope more than once if possible. You might try to go to silent running instead and ID your enemy that way. Using the scope too much is playing the odds, usually bad odds lol

You might try to approach to 10k yards instead. Get in closer and it will help you ID them with passive sonar. If you have a surface ship too close to you and you think he sees you, fire a snapshot immediately. If you can fire several torpedoes at the other targets make sure they are all activated. Firing a moss at the center of the enemy fleet is good too. Then go to evasion.

If you can ID the whole fleet, or most of the targets then go deep at 5kts/silent and target the warships first. With them out of the way the tankers can be next.

These are all general tips to maybe help I hope. Every attack can be different and require different tactics. I use more torpedo snap shots than Jive Turkey. The reason he ID's ships most of the time before attacking is he was a sonar man in peacetime. It's a habit for him. His job WAS to ID contacts but he could not use the info to fire. He is very very good though. And he has a ton of knowledge for sure. But in this game firing first is the advantage. The enemy has to react, and it puts them on the defensive. If you wait too long they fire the first shot(s) and you're on the defensive.

Sorry for being long winded LOL There are better captains than me but I like to help if I can.

Berserker · 09-08-17, 02:26 AM

This is a good sim but I am so trained on sh4 it is hard to adapt to this one...Nothing quite like having only 6 MK 14 and spot a Japanese task force in the Solomon Straits...And in that group just happens to be 2 Battle wagons and Ise and a Fuso..

.So what the hell lets go for it...NOT A GOOD IDEA!!

Especially when the Big boys evade and all 6 eels are misses...Then much to your suprise you find out the hard way that they are escorted by at least 11 destroyers...Boy they were pissed...I managed to escape with minor damage..Damn it was fun...

10-19-17, 02:54 AM

One thing I have learned in the short time I have been playing CW, is I can generally ID targets from anywhere up to 20k yds away, generally doing this as I sinking out to my TMA depth (deepest I can go at the time). This gives me time and breathing space so I don't have to rush anything. I then run TMA on the most important surface contacts to get a reasonable/good solution. I then fire for the escorts in the order of closest to farthest.

If an escort has detected my weapons and turns towards me, he is still out at 12-15k yds so again, my weapon is only 5-6k yds from him, I have time to breathe and think through each of my actions. If I feel he is getting too close, I will turn "his" weapon to active homing, and they generally turn and begin running. You may still get an "over the shoulder" SSN-14 fired at you.

Being at 1200' most times, I can have the call of "Torpedo in the water" and still have the time to go to flank speed and try to evade the weapon, even having the time to fire a MOSS before I need to think about panicking...

Once all the escorts are dealt with, I will generally come to 300' and mop up the remainder with TASM.

09-05-17, 12:22 AM	#1
Falkirion Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Melbourne, AUS Posts: 1,043 Downloads: 34 Uploads: 0	Tips in staying undetected attacking surface targets Either I'm tactically in a disadventagous position or I'm doing something wrong but I always seem to get detected around 10-15k yards away despite running silent and deep as I can once I've ID'd my targets. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, anyone got some tips on remaining undetected long enough for my targets to get into say 7-8k yard range? Subs are easy enough for me to avoid getting detected passively or actively, just I have trouble with surface escorts.

09-08-17, 02:26 AM	#13
Berserker Aggressive skipper Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 328 Downloads: 2166 Uploads: 0	This is a good sim but I am so trained on sh4 it is hard to adapt to this one...Nothing quite like having only 6 MK 14 and spot a Japanese task force in the Solomon Straits...And in that group just happens to be 2 Battle wagons and Ise and a Fuso...So what the hell lets go for it...NOT A GOOD IDEA!! Especially when the Big boys evade and all 6 eels are misses...Then much to your suprise you find out the hard way that they are escorted by at least 11 destroyers...Boy they were pissed...I managed to escape with minor damage..Damn it was fun... __________________ Shoot,Move,Communicate..Kill,Destroy,Eradicate...

09-05-17, 12:42 PM	#2
Napalm42 Watch Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 19 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I wrote a response in this thread which has some relevance. More fitting towards this question directly though, are you pointing your contacts (e.g. facing them dead on at relative bearing 000?) The wider profile you expose to active sonar, the easier you are to detect. Also, make sure you're not in the "duct". Sound travels further in the duct rather than being below the layer. This makes periscope-sighted attacks harder. Beyond that, how do you set up your attack approaches? Are you broadsides, on the nose, etc.

09-05-17, 03:47 PM	#4
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	All the questions and observations posted above are important and appropriate. Since detection and evasion is complex, there is no one answer for you. I would first direct you toward the installed PDF Manual which has some very good advice together with helpful diagrams for you to consider. See pages 38 through 41 but there are other helpful sections as well. If you do not have a strong layer boundary, avoiding detection is more difficult. Take a look at your sub's noise specifications. The noisier you are the more difficult. Consider answering the thoughtful questions posed to you by the others here. They are critical to solving your specific problem. Next, you have a MOSS. Use it when you have decided it's time to launch your weapons and you think an immediate counter attack is very likely. Next pointer, start your attack as soon as you get within range. Getting in close enough to get detected by surface ships who are making a huge amount of noise themselves means you are waiting too long to attack or are setting your initial sim start distance too close. Instead of always trying to get closer, watch the Signature Tab with identified surface targets selected and keep CONTACT numbers as low as possible while keeping OWNSHIP numbers as high as possible. There is no fixed safe CONTACT number but increasingly positive numbers are increasingly risky. The further you are when launching the attack, the less likely your transient is detected and if so, the more maneuvering room you have to evade or set up another attack. Your weapons can successfully engage at beyond enemy vessel detection range if you do it right. If you have the ability to select your sub, there may be quieter boats than your current favorite. Using a quiet one for a while until you gain confidence and experience will help you get past the learning curve. Before adding the More Playable Sub mod, use the default Narwhal for a while which is the quietest sub in the game. You can almost chew on enemy props with that sub. Lastly, patience is a virtue. Be willing to take the time to set up an advantage for yourself. Submarine warfare is a slow art culminating in a few minutes of overwhelming calamity. -Pv-

09-05-17, 06:52 PM	#7
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Understood. With babies on your stern, it's hard to take the time to observe the hole in the defensive screen patturn and wait for the timing to hit the hole when it opens up. -Pv-

09-05-17, 08:13 PM	#8
Napalm42 Watch Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 19 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	My big piece of easy advice here, tiny humans aside, is use the Signature window! That little number when you ID a contact on their sensors should stay negative, if it starts going past 0, prep for combat!

10-19-17, 02:54 AM	#14
Gaxanuzi Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	One thing I have learned in the short time I have been playing CW, is I can generally ID targets from anywhere up to 20k yds away, generally doing this as I sinking out to my TMA depth (deepest I can go at the time). This gives me time and breathing space so I don't have to rush anything. I then run TMA on the most important surface contacts to get a reasonable/good solution. I then fire for the escorts in the order of closest to farthest. If an escort has detected my weapons and turns towards me, he is still out at 12-15k yds so again, my weapon is only 5-6k yds from him, I have time to breathe and think through each of my actions. If I feel he is getting too close, I will turn "his" weapon to active homing, and they generally turn and begin running. You may still get an "over the shoulder" SSN-14 fired at you. Being at 1200' most times, I can have the call of "Torpedo in the water" and still have the time to go to flank speed and try to evade the weapon, even having the time to fire a MOSS before I need to think about panicking... Once all the escorts are dealt with, I will generally come to 300' and mop up the remainder with TASM.