One for the techies

Skybird · 06-28-20, 04:48 AM

Smartphones:

I read that with Android 6, Google changed the use of low energy Bluetooth and made it then mandatory to have GPS localizing active too, else Bluetooth LE does not work. In other word: no GPS and localization on: no Bluetooth LE for you, we are sooo sorry.

Next I read that even regular Bluetooth cannot that easily be switched off by unknowing consumers. You can unswitch the Bluetooth icon, can switch if off via that screen switch, yes, but Bluetooth then will still send small Bluetooth signals when the device detects the presence of small localised Bluetooth hotspots from mainly local stores, technically they call these "beacon". This was found and reported in 2018. Google wants that stores still can identitfy the smartphone and its owner via Bluetooth, even if the owner has switched Bluetooth and GPS off, so that the store can profile him, send him adverts and personalise advertizing on his smartphone. If you want to disable this underhanded "function" (I call it betrayal of the smartphone owner), you need to go deeper into the device settings and then either disable localising precision options ("allow more precise GPS localising by allowing the use of WLAN and Bluetooth as well"), or you need to search for bluetooth settings in the Google options and google account options themselves. Tnhat then ther eis no more hidden Bluetooth signalling is nothign you cna control - you only have Google's word for it (they were asked of it, and said yes, if you switch all this off, then Bluetooth indeed is down: but thats what they say, not more). You may have noticed by now that all these Google options are set up in so many layers and needing to be adressed in such complex and discouragingly fuzzy ways that it is no unreasonable assumption that Google does this intentionally - to discourage people from locking Google out from their private sphere as best as they can . Its extremely annoying and time-consuming - and it is designed to be right this.

Now my question: is there, as Google claims, indeed a technical need for allowing GPS tracking in order to use bluetooth LE ? My suspicion is: no there isn't, its another Google lie.

Why I ask? The much famed German corona app uses bluetooth LE, and apparently only works if beside Bluetooth also GPS localization is active. They say the app does not track position data and does not extratc such data, and I tend to believe that, since the source code was checked out by independent experts by the chaos computer club. But fact remains that the device itself, due to the active localization function, this way is very well trackable by Google themsleves, and outside the Corona app, allowing Google to track for establishing movement profiles and preference hierarchies, like they want to do all the time, this is part of their business model, else they would not have anything worth to be sold to their business customers who keep Google running. The product they sell - is us, the users. So: is there a technical hardware reason why Bluetooth LE indeed can only work if GPS tracking is being allowed, too?

I use to have my phone offline when leaving the house and having it with me. I run a small prepair contract anyway, since I alsmost never "surf" with it, I pay just 2 Euros per months this way, can send 100 SMS and have 100 MB of data volume, that is 30 times more than I use in a month to check train connections or such. I always have bluetooth and GPS and online connection and WLAN off and have disabled all localization precision options via using WLAN hotspots and such.

For all these reasons I never have contatc lists on my phne, do no emailing and no banking and no paying with my smartphone, have no banking app on it, and do not use ot for shopping. It holds no finance-related or private data. What it does not hold, cannot be "extracted".

Bluetooth always running is technically no good idea, I did it the last days due to this corona app, but it remains fact that open bluetooth interfaces allow attack vectors into your device by hackers close enough to you in the real world: your device can be found by general scanning, and then hijacking it via Bluetooth, which can reach further than you think if the attacker intensifies the signals. In times of corona I might be willing to use it nevertheless, but I will not allow Google to now constantly monitor every step I make at any direction. The corona app may not extract such data. But Android does.

Skybird · 06-28-20, 06:28 AM

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/...on-android-6-0

Finally fond this, took quite some time to find anything adressing my specific question at all.

According to the first or second guy answering in that thread, local services are technically NOT needed to allow Buetooth low energy to locate and interact with other Bluetooth beacons. In other words: Google once again dodges complaints and questions and tells people cheating BS. Or lies, if you want. They always answer according questions with "Since Android 6.0 Bluetooth LE needs local services and GPS active else it will not work", and completey dodge that part of questions asking why that should be a technical requirment. IT IS NO TECHNiCAL REQUIREMENT.

And so obviously a wanted business policy of theirs. Man leaves home in the morning, thinking his smartphone is passve and mostly off, hasn'T he just made care to have all those buttons and optiosn switched off? He sits in the bus, takes out his bluetooth headphone - et voila, he needs to switch back on the option that allows Google to track his movements, via allowing local srvices that track his movement: because else he cannot listen to his music.

That corona app therefore has to leave my device. In fact it already has.

There is a reason why I preach since many years: do not trust Microsoft. Do not trust Google. Do not trust any of these tech companies. They play foul on you whereever they can. Playing foul is heart and core and gravity centre of their business model.

Moral of the day: in computer tech things, a thing like paranoia simply does not exist. Said companies made paranoia practically unimaginable, since there is alwas truth in any suspicion against them.

I just checked it, since I did not pay attention to it before, and found: yes indeed, my bluetooth headphones do not work on my old smartphone with android 7.0 if I only allow Bluetooth on, but local services off. However, I checked them on my even older tablet with Android 4 - there it works without local services needing to be on. The policy change came with android 6. There is no tehcncial need to link GPS tracking and Bluetooth. But a strng business desire to link it nevertheless, without technical need.

Catfish · 06-28-20, 06:41 AM

Google just tells alternative facts, all else is fake news.
Learn from the "best"

Dowly · 06-28-20, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Finally fond this, took quite some time to find anything adressing my specific question at all.

It's literally one of the first results on google...

Something tells me you made this thread for none other reason but to whinge about google again... while using google products.

Skybird · 06-28-20, 09:50 AM

After I read your answer from the devs,, I dont think you have understood the core of my question. But okay, show already is over anyway.

06-28-20, 04:48 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,483 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	One for the techies Smartphones: I read that with Android 6, Google changed the use of low energy Bluetooth and made it then mandatory to have GPS localizing active too, else Bluetooth LE does not work. In other word: no GPS and localization on: no Bluetooth LE for you, we are sooo sorry. Next I read that even regular Bluetooth cannot that easily be switched off by unknowing consumers. You can unswitch the Bluetooth icon, can switch if off via that screen switch, yes, but Bluetooth then will still send small Bluetooth signals when the device detects the presence of small localised Bluetooth hotspots from mainly local stores, technically they call these "beacon". This was found and reported in 2018. Google wants that stores still can identitfy the smartphone and its owner via Bluetooth, even if the owner has switched Bluetooth and GPS off, so that the store can profile him, send him adverts and personalise advertizing on his smartphone. If you want to disable this underhanded "function" (I call it betrayal of the smartphone owner), you need to go deeper into the device settings and then either disable localising precision options ("allow more precise GPS localising by allowing the use of WLAN and Bluetooth as well"), or you need to search for bluetooth settings in the Google options and google account options themselves. Tnhat then ther eis no more hidden Bluetooth signalling is nothign you cna control - you only have Google's word for it (they were asked of it, and said yes, if you switch all this off, then Bluetooth indeed is down: but thats what they say, not more). You may have noticed by now that all these Google options are set up in so many layers and needing to be adressed in such complex and discouragingly fuzzy ways that it is no unreasonable assumption that Google does this intentionally - to discourage people from locking Google out from their private sphere as best as they can . Its extremely annoying and time-consuming - and it is designed to be right this. Now my question: is there, as Google claims, indeed a technical need for allowing GPS tracking in order to use bluetooth LE ? My suspicion is: no there isn't, its another Google lie. Why I ask? The much famed German corona app uses bluetooth LE, and apparently only works if beside Bluetooth also GPS localization is active. They say the app does not track position data and does not extratc such data, and I tend to believe that, since the source code was checked out by independent experts by the chaos computer club. But fact remains that the device itself, due to the active localization function, this way is very well trackable by Google themsleves, and outside the Corona app, allowing Google to track for establishing movement profiles and preference hierarchies, like they want to do all the time, this is part of their business model, else they would not have anything worth to be sold to their business customers who keep Google running. The product they sell - is us, the users. So: is there a technical hardware reason why Bluetooth LE indeed can only work if GPS tracking is being allowed, too? I use to have my phone offline when leaving the house and having it with me. I run a small prepair contract anyway, since I alsmost never "surf" with it, I pay just 2 Euros per months this way, can send 100 SMS and have 100 MB of data volume, that is 30 times more than I use in a month to check train connections or such. I always have bluetooth and GPS and online connection and WLAN off and have disabled all localization precision options via using WLAN hotspots and such. For all these reasons I never have contatc lists on my phne, do no emailing and no banking and no paying with my smartphone, have no banking app on it, and do not use ot for shopping. It holds no finance-related or private data. What it does not hold, cannot be "extracted". Bluetooth always running is technically no good idea, I did it the last days due to this corona app, but it remains fact that open bluetooth interfaces allow attack vectors into your device by hackers close enough to you in the real world: your device can be found by general scanning, and then hijacking it via Bluetooth, which can reach further than you think if the attacker intensifies the signals. In times of corona I might be willing to use it nevertheless, but I will not allow Google to now constantly monitor every step I make at any direction. The corona app may not extract such data. But Android does. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 06-28-20 at 05:02 AM.

06-28-20, 06:28 AM	#2
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,483 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	https://stackoverflow.com/questions/...on-android-6-0 Finally fond this, took quite some time to find anything adressing my specific question at all. According to the first or second guy answering in that thread, local services are technically NOT needed to allow Buetooth low energy to locate and interact with other Bluetooth beacons. In other words: Google once again dodges complaints and questions and tells people cheating BS. Or lies, if you want. They always answer according questions with "Since Android 6.0 Bluetooth LE needs local services and GPS active else it will not work", and completey dodge that part of questions asking why that should be a technical requirment. IT IS NO TECHNiCAL REQUIREMENT. And so obviously a wanted business policy of theirs. Man leaves home in the morning, thinking his smartphone is passve and mostly off, hasn'T he just made care to have all those buttons and optiosn switched off? He sits in the bus, takes out his bluetooth headphone - et voila, he needs to switch back on the option that allows Google to track his movements, via allowing local srvices that track his movement: because else he cannot listen to his music. That corona app therefore has to leave my device. In fact it already has. There is a reason why I preach since many years: do not trust Microsoft. Do not trust Google. Do not trust any of these tech companies. They play foul on you whereever they can. Playing foul is heart and core and gravity centre of their business model. Moral of the day: in computer tech things, a thing like paranoia simply does not exist. Said companies made paranoia practically unimaginable, since there is alwas truth in any suspicion against them. I just checked it, since I did not pay attention to it before, and found: yes indeed, my bluetooth headphones do not work on my old smartphone with android 7.0 if I only allow Bluetooth on, but local services off. However, I checked them on my even older tablet with Android 4 - there it works without local services needing to be on. The policy change came with android 6. There is no tehcncial need to link GPS tracking and Bluetooth. But a strng business desire to link it nevertheless, without technical need. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

06-28-20, 06:41 AM	#3
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,895 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Google just tells alternative facts, all else is fake news. Learn from the "best" __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

06-28-20, 09:50 AM	#5
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,483 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	After I read your answer from the devs,, I dont think you have understood the core of my question. But okay, show already is over anyway. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.