I just want to know

[mapuc]

"the Swedes and Israelis have very sophisticated re-arm and re-fuel systems to maximize sortie rates"

INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)

But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?

I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.

Markus

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by Herman

That's one reason why Alan Caso created his derivative CasoDB from the PlayersDB. He reduced the generic 6 hour ready times to something he felt was more reasonable, about two hours.

Others have customized the PlayersDB further. One user even had instantaneous ready time! I'd never say that anyone's opinion was right or wrong, but that was a bit drastic even for my tastes. Such a shame that MNO doesn't allow for this option.

Still not sure what 'MNO' is.

A major shortcoming in Harpoon is that you can only have a single ready time for each loadout. So you can hack the database to death but during gameplay there is no flexibility at all.

As mentioned repeatedly, in Command we would like to change that by having no less than three different user-selectable options. We could also make 'no ready time' a doctrine option but cannot imagine any serious player would ever use that. Lol.

Herman, what changes are planned to the Harpoon game engine to improve the air ops model?

[emsoy]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I do not know if I should mentioned it or not, it was something I found in some of the Swedish Military forum I found while searching for more info about The readiness regarding refuel and loadout on JAS39.

Markus

We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.

Thanks!

[Reckall]

Originally Posted by emsoy

LOL when your hate campaign gets you slapped down and banned by moderators at one site you immediately move on to the next. It's like whack-a-mole.

Thee told me that you posted some comments on Amazon.com about the review of "Command" I wrote for the site but I'm unable to find them. Do you have the links?

Thanks,

Vince

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by emsoy

We've already done a fair bit of reseach on this but would really appreciate if you could post those links here.

Thanks!

It was not any serious stuff some of the debates made fun of the readiness time of a F18

If I remember what it said

"lol I guess they only have 1 crew to maintain the repair and the reload a.s.o"

They were discussing the readiness time between American fighters and the Swedish JAS39.

Since I have visit so many homepage during my search for English information about JAS39 I can't remember which Swedish homepage it was on. I do remember it was on a Swedish military forum.

If I should find this passages again I will link to it, but I don't know if you understand Swedish

Forgot one thing

It was after have read this funny post I start to get this growing idea..why does it take....
Markus

[Herman]

Originally Posted by mapuc

INDEED we have. and that's why it take no time to get the onboard computer to accept the missile e.g RBS15 or RB99(AMRAAM) and not like the french 3 hours(don't know why)

Since it is French, I bet it's some kind of union thing. The Missile Makers Union local #2457 doesn't want to work with Radar Union #3164 and the three additional hours are to ensure job security.

(Relax everyone, it's just a joke. I love France - especially Les Dames.)

Originally Posted by mapuc

But can you say with 110 % sure that it don't take these 5-6 hours for a F18?

That's the thing. Because I am an honest man, I can say with absolute certainty that "I do not know" and "I could be wrong."

Sure, there are folks who think that 'I put it in my database. That must be how it works because I said so." They then proceed to brow-beat anyone who disagrees. This thread is a perfect example.

The uncertainty is why it has always been so important to have open databases in games like Harpoon and NWAC. No one can ever say that their way is the right or only way. You might think 5-6 hours is acceptable, but someone with a Top Secret manual of operations might feel 45 minutes is sufficient. Unfortunately, even if a user has the real life manual of operations, he cannot implement the information in MNO. With Harpoon, he would just change the relevant data and play his game his way. With MNO, you are stuck with someone else's perception of reality, regardless if there is any actual basis.

[mapuc]

I have made a little war story so you can see or read how thing in theory work in or on a provisional Swedish airbase in case of a war


I am definitely not a writer type, so understand that my fictional stories can be a bit cloudy. Fictional in action, but not in technical actions


Start of story


Its May 7, time 1316, somewhere outside the Polish maritime border a group of 10 JAS39 Gripen C is heading homeward.


Originally they were 16.


6 was shot down by enemy fighters, SAM's and AAA. And three of these 10 remaining fighters have been damage due to AAA or SAM's. The damage goes from light to severe.


The mission was a major failure.. Only one of the three targets got a indirect hit (partial damage) The defense was to heavy


While they are on the way home each pilot get information on their on-board computer. This information tells them that he and his plane has got a new landing place


Each pilot plot the new information into the computer(Additional info. Every JAS39 has a complete
overview and description of all roads in Sweden). After the pilot have plotted the new information into the on-board computer a new heading is made for him.


When these 10 fighters have almost reached the Swedish maritime boarder the group divide into two minor group.(4+6)




This 4 plane of the 10 JAS39 is heading to toward south of central Sweden the other six are heading north


Meanwhile a random airbase has been created outside of a small town. It took a military group about 2 hours to create this fully functional airbase(can't remember what they are called)


Right after the airbase is finished the leader call for a meeting those who attend this meeting is the
chief mechanic, weapons officer, intelligence officer, medics and some other important person vital to the operation of this base and the JAS39


In the beginning of this meeting the leader tell every one that 4 Fighter is returning from a mission and one of them have been hit by either AAA or fragments from a SAM and three more JAS39 will arrive from. South and additional three fresh pilot will arrive.


He give orders to the chief mechanic and the medics who takes note


The Intelligent officer tell the group about the coming target these 6 JAS39 shall destroy


The weapon officer takes note.


After the meeting is finished starts a flurry of activity at the base, everything has to be in order when the fighter jets arrive, especially the four aircraft that have been on mission who need extra service.


About 30 minutes later the three JAS39 from south arrives they land and taxi to a waiting point
15 minutes thereafter the first of the 4 JAS39 approach the runway/road after landing the director direct him to his waiting point. The last JAS39 that land is the plane who has been damaged. In case it should crash on the runway/road.


The plane lands with no problems and the firefighters and the medics are there to help this wounded pilot. the other pilots have gathered in large tent(forgot the name of it) the Plane that have been damaged are moved to special spot and so is one of the three undamaged plane. This plane need a longer maintenances


When each plane has landed and have reach their point the pilots take a talk with the chief mechanic who takes note

after he has talked with the last pilot he has a meeting with the other mechanics where he gives them a short briefing.

Even the weapon officer has a meeting with the folks to inform them what type of weapon the plane shall have a.s.o


Three of these pilots have been moved to a new location where they can get some rest before their next task.


The rest of the pilots are getting information from the leader and the intelligent officer.


While this meeting is going on and the pilots are getting something to eat


The fighter planes are getting ready for the next mission.


They are refueled, reloaded with the type of weapon needed for this mission


About 1 hour later the pilots return to their JAS39. Each pilots plot the way points a.s.o into the on board computer and taxi to the starting point


approximately 1 hour and 45 minutes after the first JAS39 aircraft had landed on this temporary airbase, the last of these six JAS39 takes off


Right after the last plane has left the base the military group start to pack things together


End of story


So you see we do things at almost the same time. The military make plans for the next mission or start to plane for the next mission already after the last fighter jet have left the base. a.s.o

It is of course more complex than my story I haven't mention the defence of the base and other stuff




And that's is also a reason to why I "I Just want to know" why a ground crew in USA need about 6 to refuel and reload a.s.o a F-18 or whatever fighter jet it may be.

Markus

[Coiler]

The loss rate you mentioned of over 33% in that one mission is totally unsustainable in conventional war. So with losses like those, they'll get sortie rates reduced by virtue of running out of fighters, either being shot down or held back to avoid a fruitless sacrifice. So, you have six aircraft taking off again. So far that's 22 sorties. With the original sixteen, so far that's-1.4 (rounded up) sorties per plane per day so far.

Now let's assume the next mission goes completely smoothly. No losses, no damage. Then all six go out and strike again. 28 sorties, sixteen planes. 1.75 sorties per plane per day. At this point there's undeniable wear because this is a frenzied surge. Now if you look at emsoy's post, the 1.75 I calculated is lower than the surge ops rate for more modern fighters-undoubtedly skewed by the high losses in the first strike. This is for surge operations (frenzy-quick followed by a long cooldown). Deliberately planned offensive ops are a different story-during Vietnam, the entire 7th Air Force often only managed one strike package a day in ideal conditions. Anyhow, the devs have already said they want to give scenario designers the option of different ready times for different conditions.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Coiler

The loss rate you mentioned of over 33% in that one mission is totally unsustainable in conventional war. So with losses like those, they'll get sortie rates reduced by virtue of running out of fighters, either being shot down or held back to avoid a fruitless sacrifice. So, you have six aircraft taking off again. So far that's 22 sorties. With the original sixteen, so far that's-1.4 (rounded up) sorties per plane per day so far.

Now let's assume the next mission goes completely smoothly. No losses, no damage. Then all six go out and strike again. 28 sorties, sixteen planes. 1.75 sorties per plane per day. At this point there's undeniable wear because this is a frenzied surge. Now if you look at emsoy's post, the 1.75 I calculated is lower than the surge ops rate for more modern fighters-undoubtedly skewed by the high losses in the first strike. This is for surge operations (frenzy-quick followed by a long cooldown). Deliberately planned offensive ops are a different story-during Vietnam, the entire 7th Air Force often only managed one strike package a day in ideal conditions. Anyhow, the devs have already said they want to give scenario designers the option of different ready times for different conditions.

Thank you for your answer

To clear something very important, I'm talking about the time at the base/carrier. from the fighter jet touch ground and to where it stand on the runway ready to take off

I do know it take time for a plane traveling from A to B and back and that's not the issue here.

I do also know that a plane need maintenance after so and so many flight hours, But that is not included in the game, which I wish there was.

Example. In a 4½ day scenario(Vampire Vampire) I let 2 F-14 and 2 F-18 guard the AWACS. None of these 4 fighter was engage in airbattle, when they had bingo fuel they return to the carrier and I order two earlier fighter jets take of. first two F-14 airborn until Bingofuel, before bingofuel I send the two F-18 up a.s.o a.s.o and none of these 4 fighter was removed due to maintenance in real life they would have been.

As I wrote before I do know how things work at a Swedish airbase, in peacetime and in an exercise(as it was a war going on= it is therefore I can't wait for emsoys explanation about the way it is done on a airbase/carrier and why it can take 5-6 hour or more depending the loadout.

Markus

[mapuc]

Sometime I forget things when writing. it is true that a fighter jet may only have 1.2-2 sortier per day and that has to do with the time in air and/or maintenance or repair if damaged during airbattle or damaged from SAM's or AAA.

Markus