This is a dedicated thread to list all the incorrect models

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by shadow_wxh

Ok Here come the 1st defendend,


M35B = Empire Ship
M36B = Empire CAM Ship




MaxSpeed=13 Length=147 Width=18.1 Mast=30.1 Draft=6.9 Displacement=6850


These are the real ones:

EMPIRE BALFOUR - Cargo - Type Y7 - 7201GRT/9640DWT - 136.5 x 17.1 - 1944




EMPIRE BARDOLPH - Cargo - 7017GRT/10280DWT - 136.1 x 17.2 - 1943




Empire Ship have all kinds of classed and dimensions however this type is quite consistant build around 1941 onwards hundreds of them.The average length is 132m width 17m draft 8.2m
The model has about 15 meter longer in length and 1 meter wider and 1 meter shallow,the tonnage is also under estimated.You might argue that are you certain there isn't a longer Empire Ship? The thing is the longer Emire Ship looks like this:


EMPIRE CAPTAIN - Pass/Cargo - 9875GRT/11975DWT - 151.6 x 19.6 - 1944


A longer Empire Ship is usually a tanker or need an extra kingpost.Hundreds Empire Ship scaned the result is conclusive.

I am the creator of thee empire ship model. How dare you criticize!

Just kidding. Actually I hate that model. It's kind of like calling your own child ugly, but anyway....lol!

The model was created more than 10 years ago, when I was a new modeler. Back then were the "old days" of SH3 modding. Not many websites, not many research materials, and not much experience with modeling tools. The result? Crude-looking ships, with inaccurate features.

I will say that my old friend AG124, who created many of the other early modded ships, did great work with the materials we had back in the day. Sadly he has not posted on Subsim recently (he was studying law and very busy after about 2007). If he had continued modding he would have definitely produced marvelous results. Salute to him!

I did replace the Empire freighter with an improved model around 2009; unfortunately, it was never as popular as the old inaccurate model because it came out after the most popular supermods.

The good news is that work on my WWI mod is winding down at last, and my next project will be the Merchant Fleet Mod II for SH3 and SH4. That mod will aim to provide a new Empire Ship - in fact, new vessels to replace all of the mediocre ones I've made in the past. Plus a lot of new features & tricks to make sinking merchant ships much more interesting.

Anyway, good criticism, and carry on! I hope to have your input when this new project starts (if you're interested).

[shadow_wxh]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

I am the creator of thee empire ship model. How dare you criticize!
....
Anyway, good criticism, and carry on! I hope to have your input when this new project starts (if you're interested).

I knew you would be upset about this so would the other ship modellers.But it has be done.I am in the process of identifiy each every ship model in current SH3 database,give them proper name, assign them to the right contry ,make sure they show up in the right place at right time.Eventually making sure all registered ship models were real ships that did entere service during WWII and a leaset a few doezen individual record under each class.


It is also important too to do this so that sub fans and mod builder can have something to refer to when selecting new mod-what ship are good quality what ship you might think twice.They all looks good at first sight untill years later you find out you been playing with fake ships the whole time.


Those Empire Ship and CAM Ship isn't that bad though,very fat and juicy,love to sink them all the time, just a little over tolerance of errors,plays a major role in the merchant fleet and that is why it is important to get them right.Good to know you are continuing working on it.


I am no ship modeller myself dont have that artistic skill but I can help check everything else goes alright.


Keep up good work,Salute!

[J0313]

Originally Posted by shadow_wxh

I knew you would be upset about this so would the other ship moddellers.But it has be done.I am in the process of identifiy each every ship model in current SH3 database,give them proper name, assign them to the right contry ,make sure they show up in the right place at right time.Eventually making sure all registered ship models were real ships that did entere service during WWII and a leaset a few doezen individual record under each class.


It is also important too to do this so that sub fans and mod builder can have something to refer to when selecting new mod-what ship are good quality what ship you might think twice.They all looks good at first sight untill years later you find out you been playing with fake ships the whole time.


Those Empire Ship and CAM Ship isn't that bad though,very fat and juicy,love to sink them all the time, just a little over tolerance of errors,plays a major role in the merchant fleet and that is why it is important to get them right.Good to know you are continuing working on it.


I am no ship moddler myself dont have that artistic skill but I can help check everything else goes alright.


Keep up good work,Saulte!

He was joking with you, relax.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by J0313

He was joking with you, relax.

It's all OK! We are kidding with each other. I appreciate the criticism.

Another thing I have started doing that I didn't do before is using a "ruler" while modeling. Back in 2006-2008 when SH3 modding started, a lot of ships pretty much used guess work for length/width/height. For my WWI mod Wolves of the Kaiser I measure how many scale feet/meters a ship is in wings3d. I will do the same thing for all new WWII merchant ships. This is a good way to avoid strange-looking ships that are too thin/fat.

[shadow_wxh]

This Ship:
NKGN = Large Cargo
also declared as
NACP = HSK-5 Pinguin


The Model:



It is documented is LSH3_V5_Handbuch:
"Bei der Suche nach einem geeigneten „Spenderschiff“ für mein Hilfskreuzerprojekt bin ich auf die Akita-Maru aus SH4 gestoßen, welche von Molke2005 nach SH3 importiert wurde. Das Problem nur: sie ist mit 102 m Länge viel zu kurz. Aber die Form des Rumpfes und der Aufbauten entsprachen weitgehend der des Hilfskreuzers „Pinguin“ (HSK 5/Schiff 33)."



So basicly it is a streched version of Akita Maru with other borrowed componet to represent HSK-5 Pinguin.Fairly straight forward you can tell this is NOT the ship, see my previous post.Then I looked in to merchant ship database to see if I can find large merchant which looks like it so I can register under this ship model,couldn't find any.


This is the problem when you making new ship models by largely borrow componet from other ships,it doesn't looks like any body.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by shadow_wxh

This Ship:
NKGN = Large Cargo
also declared as
NACP = HSK-5 Pinguin


The Model:



It is documented is LSH3_V5_Handbuch:
"Bei der Suche nach einem geeigneten „Spenderschiff“ für mein Hilfskreuzerprojekt bin ich auf die Akita-Maru aus SH4 gestoßen, welche von Molke2005 nach SH3 importiert wurde. Das Problem nur: sie ist mit 102 m Länge viel zu kurz. Aber die Form des Rumpfes und der Aufbauten entsprachen weitgehend der des Hilfskreuzers „Pinguin“ (HSK 5/Schiff 33)."



So basicly it is a streched version of Akita Maru with other borrowed componet to represent HSK-5 Pinguin.Fairly straight forward you can tell this is NOT the ship, see my previous post.Then I looked in to merchant ship database to see if I can find large merchant which looks like it so I can register under this ship model,couldn't find any.


This is the problem when you making new ship models by largely borrow componet from other ships,it doesn't looks like any body.

The original model of Akita Maru is not bad, on this modification I notice a few things that could be improved:

1) Ship's lifeboats are probably too small. If you look at real WWII medium cargos, boats were much larger.

2) Lifeboats should usually all be on the same deck. Here, they are in 3 different places.

3) Very few split superstructure ships had four cranes at the midship hatch. Standard practice was just two (there were some exceptions, but not many). Typically, these 2 cranes were for loading coal for the bunker near engine room.

4) Could use a bit more wires/rigging. Main derricks are a little small.

5) Paint scheme. Most allied/axis cargo ships spent the war grey overall to hide from the enemy (occasionally, camouflage tones of green, white, black, or tan were also allowed, or splotch camo and false bow waves).

6) Funnel color. Too bright. As with hull paint scheme, smokestack colors were painted out and funnel stripes/company emblems removed. For camo purposes and to conceal info from the enemy (made it harder to tell what company a ship was owned by - thus less information about which ship had been encountered/sunk).

Aside from that, not bad, a plausible large modern merchant of British/Scandinavian/German type. Japan had a few (though they mostly preferred block superstructure design).

Again, not trying to bash creators; just constructive hints for ship design. And I know my own ships have their problems.

[iambecomelife]

A good color film of a WWII convoy. This shows common types of real 1940's ships. And how they were painted. You will notice that the cargo ships are painted grey or dark blackish colors...NOT bright civilian paint schemes.

[shadow_wxh]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

Again, not trying to bash creators; just constructive hints for ship design. And I know my own ships have their problems.

Not trying to bash any creators and I am trying to avoid telling their IDs even I knew who made them.And dont worry there isnt many active ship modeller left ,so they wont be looking and it's good time to clear some of the old stock.



The thing about ship modelling is that if it is declared to be a certain ship it has to looks like it.You wouldn't go to a model store and buy a ship model that looks like nobody same thing happen here. Currently almost all ship above 2000 tons in WWII era can be trace back to individual ship so try to moddel compare to a real ship as much as possible.Otherwise declare it is a imaginary unit ,then no one could say much about it.Like this one even I strongly suspecting there is such ship at all I got no solid evidence.
your option to the ship.I think there are some few guide lines to follow even building a imaginary unit.
1. When strench a ship base make sure other dimensions are reasonabley stenched too
2. Make sure kingposts and masts scatter evenly across the deck
3. Avoid using bright colors and skins,the ship will look dull but this is just the fact. The only thing fanncy we could add is the razzle dazzle camouflage - they're doing everything they can to prevent UBoat captains from reconginsing the ship.
4. Logicly make sense: a whale factoy ship needs a chanel to drag the whale up,a merchant raider needs to hind the guns,a flight catapult cant be stationed above a coal hatch
5. Have some general formula to calculate ship's draft displacemnt eng power renown hp etc and make sure those data checked up
6. Last but not least- Just dont copy another ship base completely and make new ship above it,it just doesnt feel right

[shadow_wxh]

This Ship


KLSSHansa = Large Hansa Split Freighter


The Model:



It says hansa but didn't specify which one,so I checked all of them

These are the closed matches





TRIFELS


DRACHENFELS


RHEINFELS


NEUBAU 256


Notes:
This Model is actually Hakusika Maru




Another example why you shouldn't use one model to produce another.

Just Because they look similar doesnt mean they can be classified as same ship. German ship have on dimension match to this and their Kingpost/Mast configuration are different too.
Plus the cross plate for the mast is position too low.There is no way to load/unload cargo safely if your cargo boom is short handed.






Derricks and Mast System Illustration



1.portal mast 2.cross tree 3.derrick boom positioned over the hatch 4.derrick boom positioned outside the ship 5.derrick heel gooseneck fitting 6.derrick head fitting 7.cargo winches 8.cargo runners 9.cargo triangle plate 10.cargo hook 11.slings 12. fixed span ropes 13.mast head span fitting 14.schooner guy tackle 15.preventer guys 16.slewing guy tackles 17.upper slewing guy pendants 18.lower slewing guy pendants 19.belaying cleat 20.deck eyeplates

SWL : safe working load of gear PB : axial thrust on derrick boom Lb : resultant load on head fitting of derrick head cargo block or cargo purchase block Ls : tension in cargo runner or in cargo purchase runner H : load on span or resultant load on head fitting of derrick head span tackle block Hb : resultant load on head fitting of mast head span block or span tackle block Hss = resultant load on head fitting of mast head lead block for span tackle Hs : tension in span rope or in span tackle rope

[shadow_wxh]

This Ship

KMCS = Medium Hansa Composite Freighter









D/S SCHWANECK

Extractly the same problem as previously explained plus the horizontal wire above the ship is very unreal too.

[iambecomelife]

Hmm..not a bad ship but perhaps lifeboats could be placed on one deck...it looks like it's about 65 feet wide or more though I could be mistaken. Clearly based on one of the medium SH4 Japanese merchants. One thing that could help with the rigging is giving it a parabolic "sag", instead of a straight line from mast to mast.

Looks a little like the H. Hogarth "Baron Blythswood" type freighters from the 1920's but those ships had a different funnel, narrower beam, and fewer lifeboats (all on one deck). Not sure about other historical look-alikes (?)

[shadow_wxh]

This Ship
OTMS = T3 Tanker or LTMS = T3 Tanker with Light
No idea what does OTMS mean


The Model:


Real Ship:

T3-S2-A1 USS CIMARRON AO-22




T3-S2-A1 USS Platte (AO-24)



T3-S-A1 USS Chiwawa (AO-68)


T3-S-A1 Syosset

T3-M-AZ1Brandywine (II)

Comparison:
Design Length × beam × draft
T3-S-A1 tanker, Chiwawa-class oiler 152.7 m × 20.7 m × 11.3 m
T3-S2-A1 tanker, Cimarron-class oiler 168.6 m × 22.9 m × 19.5 m
T3-S2-A3 tanker, Ashtabula class 168.6 m × 22.9 m × 19.5 m
T3-S2-A3 "jumboized" 196 m × 23 m × 19.5 m
T3-M-AZ1 tanker 167 m × 21 m x 19.5 m
T3-S-B tanker 157.2 m × 21.3 m x 19.5 m
OTMS (3DModel) 190.4 m × 30.3 m x17.5m


There are 6 sub types of T3 tanker obviously the model is after the most common T3-S2-A1.The S-A1 is significant smaller ,the S2-A3 only enter service after the war ended,other sub types have ditinctive different profile.The model is 21.8m longer 7.4m wider 2m short.
The ship funnel is too small.The deck house shape is totaly wrong.Mast and kingpost configuration does not match any exsiting ship.



Conlcusion:

I am totally shocked when I find out how wrong this can get. Any ship does not even follow basic dimension constraint have absolute no vaule worth keeping. All of them shall be dismantled and make room for new ships.

Any one wants to take the contract and get this ship reworked


P.s T3 tankers are exclusively American never lend lease to any other contry.

[iambecomelife]

Good points again. I plan to make several new heavy tanker variants, one of which will replace OTMS. This particular ship was recycled for SH4 and SH5, and equips several nations that did not really own similar ships.

When you get familiar with WWII merchant ships you'll notice that British, American, Japanese, & Norwegian tankers often had their own distinctive "look" - I'm not sure what tanker they were trying to portray with this. I personally would replace it with MV "Atlantic Sun" and her sisters - modern tankers built around 1941 and 11,355 GRT.


Lastly, one of my major pet peeves with simulation ship models? Crane/derrick boom position. Booms were almost always lashed fully up or fully down at sea, (as near to 90' angle or 0' angle as possible). This protected the ship from damage and also maximized how much deck cargo (locomotives, tanks, etc) could be carried - very important in wartime. A real crew never left the cranes sticking out in random directions. On the OTMS model (like a lot of other ships) the booms on the stern kingposts are dangling at a 45 degree angle or something similar. I suspect a lot of modelers see pictures of WWII merchants/tankers that were taken in port, and don't realize that cranes are at an angle because that is when they are needed for loading/unloading. May seem like a little thing, but an actual WWII convoy veteran commented to my favorite modeler that this is something amateur modelers often get wrong!

[Mister_M]

Interesting thread !

This game needs a lot of corrections !

[iambecomelife]

Just found an image of the tanker I believe they based OTMS on (note MODERN TANKER). OTMS was not a bad ship model for 2005 (aside from the issues discussed) but you can see there are several differences: