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Old 06-03-2020, 10:39 AM   #1
feld
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All,

Been away 8 years. Was in USN. Submarines. Now retired as of 2 years ago. Trying to get my sub fix. Have DW steam installed and working with LWAMI which is what I used to use. BUT

(There's always a "but")

-I see that RA is in active development and LWAMI is not. Is this true?
-It seems like RA shifts the technical balance between the various world navies. Can anyone give me their impressions of the subjective (or objective if you can) "realism" between the two mods.
-Does the LWAMI team ever show up here anymore? Anyone have contact with them if not?
-Can Cold Waters be made comparable to DW in realism with mods?

Thanks in advance for any assistance that you can provide.

v/r
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Old 06-04-2020, 11:59 AM   #2
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Hi there- big fan of our Submariners, thank you for your service brother.

So I never messed with LWAMI but have played with RA for years.

RA is both awesome and infuriating. RA really changes the game and adds awesomeness but is so biased to the Russians that sometimes you just throw your hands up and quit. I usually do this for months at a time, then come back, play for a few months etc. They have made it so biased- *all* the newest Russian platforms (ships, subs, aircraft, etc.) are in the game, and they're all fully-spec'd out to the best of the best. PLUS all the latest weapons. And of course they are also the best of the best.

Whereas, the US stuff is not only not even close, it's not even fair. I think the most recent RA had added the SM-2 Block IV for some platforms. Awesome lol...I think I read somewhere that there are less than 72 of the SM-2 Block IV in the US inventory (as of a couple years ago) and the IVa was cancelled in 2001. But we have had the SM-3 for BMD for a decade or more (and the game has modeled the Chinese ASBM DF-21, called the CSS-5, and it's literally invincible, definitely could use that SM-3 to intercept it...) and the SM-6 for very-long range AAW, ASuW, and even BMD ... and my point here is, to say, "well it's an old game, you can't expect things like SM-3s and SM-6s etc." -- well if the Russians have absolutely everything, it's not even close to fair.

The Russians have all the newest ships - Admiral Grigorovich and the even bigger Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates , all the subclasses of the Steregushchiy-class corvettes (Steregushchiy ,Soobrazitelnyy, Gremyashchiy, etc.) - and all of them have the latest offensive and defensive weaponry. So they can shoot down basically ANY offensive missiles, and nobody can shoot down their missiles. Once in a while for fun, I'll just build a mission and put all of the world's best AAW (Anti-Air Warfare) and Air-Defense Frigates, Destroyers, and Cruisers together (The Italian and French Horizon and FREMM classes, the UK Type-45, the German Saschen [the ONLY ONE IN THE GAME in the least bit comparable to the Russians, IMHO] , not to mention the Aegis-based Spanish F-100, the ROK Seojong the Great, the Japanese Kongo, PLUS the FLTs. I, II, and IIA Arleigh Burkes, PLUS sometimes other stuff added in...) and watch the Russians merck them all mercilously.

The Kirov-class CGN Battlecruiser is basically the USS Enterprise from Star Trek.

The Yasen-class SSGN submarine is basically the USS Defiant, an underwater Destroyer that can cloak, can't detect it, but wouldn't help you if you COULD, it's going to sling 40 missiles at you that you can't shoot down and they are going to kill you until you're dead because screw you, that's why.

and I understand that it's extremely hard to add new platforms, apparently *very* difficult. And they can't do certain things, so they can't make (for example) an Arleigh Burke playable because they can't adjust certain weapons and equipment settings even if they wanted to - so I get that - but when you compare the balance of the entire "balance", it's ridiculous.

Aircraft- Russia has their top-end everything (SU-57, "near-space-plane- MiG-31 can just about orbit the earth at ICBM speeds, every big-time bomber like the Backfire and the Blackjack, playable Bear-Foxtrot, etc.) - America has impotent fighters, (F-14s have never scored a kill with the AIM-54 , only the most capable AAM in the entire Cold War time-period...) the F-117 and F-22 are basically insta-deaths (useless) , no B-1s or B-2s or B-52s etc. No modern weaponry or electronics etc.

No new surface platforms like the Zumwalt, LCS, etc. The CG-47s and DDG-51s are nowhere near their "true" potential. I've even played with the Iowa-class a few times. ONE SHELL from an Iowa 16" gun would sink ANY SHIP IN THE GAME in reality ... in the game, it's like 11% damage maybe IF they hit something.

I would have NO PROBLEM if it was like, "Look it's a Cold War game, that's it..." except it's not, it's like The Empire Strikes Back And The Jedi Aren't Allowed To Use The Force.


Other than that, yeah man, it's a blast!
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Old 06-04-2020, 01:08 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tAKticool47 View Post
Hi there- big fan of our Submariners, thank you for your service brother.

So I never messed with LWAMI but have played with RA for years.

RA is both awesome and infuriating.


...



Other than that, yeah man, it's a blast!



I've played a lot of LWAMI and I like it. I wish LWAMI had some more stuff to drive, though. Then I play RA and remember that I don't like getting sniped by 40 SUBROCs.

OP, yeah LWAMI is dead development wise, but still plays just fine. I have no idea if the devs still show up, I don't recall seeing them being active here.

Cold Waters and DW are quite different games. Cold Waters is more like a Tom Clancy's SSN or Red Storm Rising whereas Dangerous Waters is a procedural sim.
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Old 06-04-2020, 04:05 PM   #4
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1. Only RA is still active developing mod.
2. Realism is very subjective thing. But if you wanna play mod with closer to realistic values weapon/sensors etc RA is for you.
For example:
- speed of missiles
- bigger role of NB over BB mode sonars
- more controlable weapon (more weapon modes)
- added new sensors (like LIDAR etc)
- better ship systems emulation like AEGIS (but still far from perfect becasue sonalysts released unfinished game - very hard to fix their hundreds of bugs)

Also RA allows you to play many different than vanilla platforms. Of course lots of new platforms based on mix of interfaces from original. But newest uses mostly own interfaces.
Except "realism" RA rebuilded campaigns and single player missions from Sub command and 688 H/K so its mod with best number of playable missions.


Unfortunatelly some "realism" features makes game less stabile in some situations (but it depends on scenario you play). SimNavalEngine and bugs in exe+dll's doesn't work good with dozens of missiles in the air + airplanes simultanously. Because vanilla missiles had only 2/3 of speed - game was more stabile in the same situations. Also more realistic radar numbers and their emulation has negative impact on situations like above. But its matter mostly in MP sessions - with 6 or more players. In single it works fine - sometimes even better than in vanilla or LwAmi.


Lwami is smaller mod, more compact designed. So more of features "cooperates" good with other features. But LwAmi didn't fix many bugs discovered later.
Also LwAmi is focused on very narrow naval warfare era.
Unfortunatelly LwAmi ins't perfect as some people here describes. In some kind of missions LwAmi havent good stability - is much worse than RA.
But still LwAmi is very nice for playing. Big matter of BB sonar looks nice. And Lwami has best Phalanx sound :P


Ok, time to bust some myths:
1. RA is good for MP and bad for single - nonsense writed by people who plays only single and mostly never read manuals
2. Lwami is more stable mod - ask FPSchazly how many times his game crashed during Liu doctrine one of first missions
3. Lwami is compatibile with vanilla scenarios - its not really truth because most of this scenarios were designed with limited range of sonar detections. LwAmi and RA removed/moved this limits of detection much furthurer than in vanilla. So in many "vanilla" scenarios you are detected in first minutes of mission - and you will hear message:
Mission cannot be completed report for debriefing.
4. RA make russian submarines overpowered - not really. It just didn't make them "boys to beating" like some guys would like to see. Btw sonalysts also didn't made Akula as "weak submarine" so i don't understand this accusations. Russian submarines have own advantages and disadvantages - the same like US submarines.
5. In RA russian platforms uses ultra modern weapon - not always in service in real etc. Its truth, but also in vanilla US submarines had Harpoons and TASM's but in real this weapon wasnt in service in USN. Sonalysts gave some weapons to some platforms only "for game purpose".


Quote:
The Russians have all the newest ships - Admiral Grigorovich and the even bigger Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates , all the subclasses of the Steregushchiy-class corvettes (Steregushchiy ,Soobrazitelnyy, Gremyashchiy, etc.) - and all of them have the latest offensive and defensive weaponry.
Its truth. In my opinion its pointless if you do this only for 1 "side/nation" because this ships haven't equal (in era terms) opponents. In other hand, its not problem because you don't have to use this newest ships in missions. You can but you don't have to
Maybe in future releases opponents will be also "updated to "today standards"

And i agree russian weapon systems are unbalanced in comparison for US. Russian newest corvettes have better antimissile defence than AEGIS fleet of 3-4 ships
But this "bug" is matter of really simpliffied design sonalysts AEGIS because for game engine weapon channels doesn't really matters. So fact AEGIS radars can track and simultanously engage many targets is NOT emulated in DW correctly.


Last thing about RA is - we still play every weekend MP sessions with this mod. Game host is located in Central Europe so it could be a problem for players from USA time zones (but we have american players too).
If you are interested participation in MP sessions just click on my signature - its invitation to DWDL discord channel.
Also i record videos from all MP sessions on YT - so you can chack how it looks (but watching DW is little boring :P )

My YT Dangerous Waters channel


Reinforce Alert developers are banned here because mod changes .exe file which isn't follows licence rules. But Subsim is still beneficient of RA mod because players interested this mod are big part of DW community here. In my opinion its not fair.
So if you wanna contact with RA devs - use forum below:

Red Rodgers forum - RA discussion

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Old 06-04-2020, 05:22 PM   #5
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Yeah, I didn't want to touch this question until some other guys weighed in.

RA is what it is. RA is still on-going (?) and what it gets right has saved an old game from becoming a bore. There are a multitude of drive-able platforms now, and the game looks better when you crank up the display resolution. Its also fun to goof around with some of the new weps that are available (my next bike will have a super-cavitation mod ).

The problem is that you can't play RA like DW. We know RA was developed for multiplayer gaming, but a multiplayer gaming... what? No one is offering any clues of what RA is supposed to be. I've guessed in the past that RA is a modern version of World Of Warships, mostly because the game play looks similar and no one has said I'm wrong.

You can't hide in the ocean anymore in RA. Depth and thermal layers don't mean squat. So, if you're looking to drive a sub its going to be a very short and tragic experience. Its better to drive as fast as you can and just keep shooting, which is not submarine, or even Naval, warfare.

I can understand the Nationalistic slant. We all have our own world-view. I also understand that there are a lot of pre-conceived notions out there about what submarine and Naval combat really are. I still have my first pair of dolphins in a closet somewhere, while most folks don't. To be really honest about it, Tom Clancy didn't do us a lot of favors with his first book.

I can also understand that these are just games we're playing. Trust me, you wouldn't enjoy a true submarine simulator unless you were already addicted to coffee. I'm hoping RA isn't done yet and some balance will return later on.

Feld, again welcome aboard. Pulling a twenty year hitch ain't easy and you've got my respect, I was only able to do six years and one month* before all of the chairs disappeared in 1993.


*- That one extra month was considered "convenience of the government". Basically, the Navy wanted me and a bunch of my buddies GONE while my command and Squadron 7 wanted to force the Navy into letting me re-enlist. Guess who won that fight?
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Old 06-04-2020, 05:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
The problem is that you can't play RA like DW
Can you explain this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
We know RA was developed for multiplayer gaming
Its very funny because main developer of DW do NOT play multiplayer. He likes DW+RA for single player. And he didn't knew about many problems in MP until i reported them as bugs. As you see you are completly wrong - not first time.
Many playable platforms doesnt means mod was designed for MP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
I've guessed in the past that RA is a modern version of World Of Warships, mostly because the game play looks similar and no one has said I'm wrong.
Its because its so ridiculous than no one thought you are serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
You can't hide in the ocean anymore in RA. Depth and thermal layers don't mean squat. So, if you're looking to drive a sub its going to be a very short and tragic experience.
Don't judge ohters like yourself. Fact you are really weak player doesn't means everyone are as bad as you. I proved some time ago "impossible for you" was piece of cake for me - and most of active players. I've recorded video on YT - do you remember your problems with training mission from 688 H/K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ET2SN View Post
I can understand the Nationalistic slant. We all have our own world-view.
Me too so i understand you believe that only USN can build good submarines :P
Main developer is accused by Russians for not making their submarines and ships super-good, and in the same time accused by "western players" for making russian submarines too good.
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Old 06-04-2020, 09:20 PM   #7
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Thanks everyone for the insights into where the community is. Truth be told I was half thinking about contacting the LWAMI folks if I could and seeing if I could get development going again without modding the .exe. Though I imagine the RA developer wouldn't have modded the .exe if the problems were fixable in other ways.

Still, Sonalyst is a going concern and I know some folks over there a little, and I'm a big believer in IP rights so I'm a tiny bit hesitant to play a mod that expressly goes against their wishes.

Then again...I'd be even more hesitant if they'd release a new @!#!$ game...

Ah well.

One question: anyone with a sonar background commented on any RA mod's changes to the sonar and ocean acoustics model? My biggest sadness with Dangerous Waters was when I realized how simple the sonar model really was and that it was likely to be the best I could ever get outside of a professional attack center trainer because there wasn't a market for the underwater sound elements I wanted.

Thanks again for all the data, information, and opinions provided above.

v/r
feld

Last edited by feld; 06-04-2020 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p7p8 View Post
Me too so i understand you believe that only USN can build good submarines :P
Main developer is accused by Russians for not making their submarines and ships super-good, and in the same time accused by "western players" for making russian submarines too good.
The difference is that I was there in the mid 80's to 1993. Yes, the USN was that good.

If you choose to not believe me, that's fine. Just remember, respect is a two-way street.
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Old 06-05-2020, 07:22 AM   #9
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Folks,

I present a few points for your consideration and then I have a request:

1. It is VERY difficult to get any hard unclassified data on naval and particularly submarine performance after about 1955. In any Navy. Anywhere. So civilians working on naval history, games, and modifications have a limited dataset to begin with.
2. Then language barriers set in. I read a lot about World War 1 and 2 naval combat. I know that, in English sources, it's still very difficult to get some information in my native tongue that Japanese sources have had in them for decades. I know that there are still huge gaps in the (English language) sources on Jutland and it happened over 100 years ago. So a game written by English speakers is likely to rely on sources in English and a mod made by Russian speakers is likely to rely on sources in Russian.

My request:
I know I'm just returning to the party here and I seem to have stumbled into a long standing argument...but I'd really like to keep "accusations" on nationalism in our games/mods out of my thread if I can. I appreciate both sets of comments here: ET2SN's because I, while not there in the 80s, have been "there" in general and have seen some of the same data he's seen and p7p8's because you're clearly very familiar with the mod in question. I'm always trying to be conscious of my own bias and remembering that, even though the US was reading Japanese codes in the 30s and watching their exercises, they didn't know about the Long Lance torpedo until late in the war.

Thank you all for your continued assistance.

v/r
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:20 AM   #10
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First generations of UK SSN's were quieter than US SSN's - so its prove you believe in some kind of propaganda.

Quote:
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The difference is that I was there in the mid 80's to 1993
You was onboard every submarine of every nation in middle of 80's? Sorry but i don't believe you. And if you was onboard only 1 type of submarine it gives you knowledge (partially) only about this type - its clear for everyone.

I was onboard Perry class frigate and i this fact don't give me "expert" title about every warships in the world

Btw your accusations about my nationalism are really dumb because im not Russian or American. Its once more prove, you judge situations only in very narrow and very subjective point of view. The same like your ridiculous sentence:

Quote:
You can't hide in the ocean anymore in RA. Depth and thermal layers don't mean squat. So, if you're looking to drive a sub its going to be a very short and tragic experience.
So i tell you again - don't judge others by own experiences because not everyone have problems with simplest things like you has. Your opinions completly miss real picture. You can ask every active player and they will tell you commanding submarine in RA its NOT sentence of death. I play often submarines and i can win with every opponent because in DW it depends on tactic and cooperation with team - not on confabulations.
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Old 06-09-2020, 08:01 AM   #11
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No, Alfa Tau hasn't been updated for a few years, and I think the devs drunk the RA Kool-Aid since, but I still think it contends as a mod a new user ought to try. Prior to RA, it really held its own for quite a while.


Call it an honorable mention if nothing else.
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