US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[ikalugin]

- Create a new (Kurdish) nation-state to fight ISIS and oppose Assad.
- This new nation state theatens sovereighnity and territorial integrity of all existing states in the region (Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, maybe others) due to having claims on their lands, some of those states are long established US allies and/or are balancing into falling under other's influence.
- Get surprised that none of the local states like the idea of Kurdish nation-state.
- Get outraged when local states react the same way they did to such a state (atleast Iraqis are not gassing them... not yet anyway).
- Push US allies to other partners.

To me it sounds like the well meaning western white man is shooting himself in the foot with hubris of imperialism again.

And lets assume that Kurdish nation-state becomes a thing by some miracle, it is going to be like Israel but worse:
- it is a landlocked country surrounded by enemies
- probably a center of instability, waging wars often
- probably discriminating/cleansing non Kurds due to it being an ethnostate with grievances

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Create a new (Kurdish) nation-state to fight ISIS and oppose Assad. [...]

This is how it should be
Unfortunately what then happens is what you described after this first line.

And why "create" a nation state? Plain imperialism again.
How did 'nations' or 'states' emerge initially?
What we have from Afghanistan to the middle east (and worldwide) is the result of imperialism and colonies. England created borders across peoples territories in this region, England declared it to be "right" or "wrong".
Let them sort out the mess they created, and in which we have to live today.

Think about how and why the nation of Armenia (thanks Ikalugin ) even exists today, and Russia's role.

[ikalugin]

You mean Armenia?

Ironically I am not against the idea of supporting Kurds in general, I am just pointing out that Turkish reaction that people find unpleasant is the result of the Western action and thus this outrage is... silly?

[u crank]

Interesting comments by Sen. Rand Paul on NBC's "Meet the Press".

..this is a hundred year old war between the Turks and the Kurds. Realize the president is asking is it in our national security interest to somehow figure out how the Kurds can live with the Turks?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...the_kurds.html

So there is this long history. And the question we have to ask is, and I have to ask, am I going to send the sons and daughters of America and mothers and fathers, and I'm to send them there to die to try to figure out how the Kurds and the Turks can get along? And I don't see that in our national interest. And we should vote on it. We should vote on it in congress and declare war if that's what people want.

But what I would say is this, we have to debate in congress. We are -- my oath is to the constitution. My oath isn't as to some promise that somebody thinks we made for a Kurdish homeland. We should vote. And here's the reason why we won't vote, they don't know who to declare war on?

Are we going to declare war on Turkey? We're going to declare war on the Free Syrian Army, which was our ally for seven years. Are we going to declare war on Assad?

[Rockstar]

add to the fact Turkey views all kurdush factions as terrorist organizations. are we then expected to support these terrorists organized against a member of NATO?

[Catfish]

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.

its a confusing, convoluted, hazy, grey area, that nobody here really understands. Why? because we are to believe the consistent bombardment of petty arguements over trival emotionally charged subjects and party loyalty are more important. Hard to keep our leaders accountable when we dont take the time too understand the reality of middle east affairs ourselves. Instead we just spend our days insulting each other and posting stupid memes.

Oh btw, vote odin.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I have always wondered .. Erdoghan who abolishes democracy, erects a dictatorship and leads his(ownership!) country as a dictator.
This Erdoghan describes all Kurds as terrorists.
And the well-meaning and ethically so superior West believes him.
Because, Nato-member.
Because holding back refugees, from Europe.
Because after the Kurds finished off the IS, the Kurds can go to hell.
Moral superiority..

The real morale: Think twice with whom you ally, this message has been heard loud and clear.

Because West created the problem of the Kurdish sovereighnity.

[Catfish]

I would rather say "The West" was the first to take Kurdish sovereignty seriously. Or better pretended to, while the Kurds were useful.
Just like with the Arabians (England), or Saddam Hussein's Iraq (USA) and so on.

I just realized this is exactly what you said

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by August

Amazing how these doves suddenly turn into war hawks when it's not their guy pulling our troops out of foreign entanglements.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

its a confusing, convoluted, hazy, grey area, that nobody here really understands. Why? because we are to believe the consistent bombardment of petty arguements over trival emotionally charged subjects and party loyalty are more important. Hard to keep our leaders accountable when we dont take the time too understand the reality of middle east affairs ourselves. Instead we just spend our days insulting each other and posting stupid memes.

Oh btw, vote odin.

August understands why ... The Doves are raising up their ugly heads

[Mr Quatro]

Seems money that can be made off of oil and gas in the Ukraine is not limited to just VP Biden's son.

Nancy Pelosi's son Pelosi Jr is on the board of Viscoil and an executive at NRGLab which is involved in the energy business in the Ukraine.

Just a little odd that's all ... Members of our upper elite have been making money on the side for years.

Wouldn't this qualify as part of the swamp?

[eddie]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Seems money that can be made off of oil and gas in the Ukraine is not limited to just VP Biden's son.

Nancy Pelosi's son Pelosi Jr is on the board of Viscoil and an executive at NRGLab which is involved in the energy business in the Ukraine.

Just a little odd that's all ... Members of our upper elite have been making money on the side for years.

Wouldn't this qualify as part of the swamp?

How much money has Trumps daughter and her husband made since being made advisors to the President, and haven't done crap. Over $80 Million in 3 years. So time to get off your pulpit, but Republicans area all above board and do no wrong! They are just adding to your stinking swamp homeboy!

[MaDef]

Originally Posted by eddie

How much money has Trumps daughter and her husband made since being made advisors to the President, and haven't done crap. Over $80 Million in 3 years. So time to get off your pulpit, but Republicans area all above board and do no wrong! They are just adding to your stinking swamp homeboy!

Before I take your word for it, how about citing some sources for your information? there's a world of difference between a blind trust and being an active board member of a corporation.

[vienna]

One picture is worth a thousand words...







All the President's Profiting --

https://www.opensecrets.org/trump/trump-properties


Seems like the presidency has been a boon to the Trump family enterprises; going from well under USD $1,000,000 to high multiples following his run for office isn't at all suspicious or give the appearance of a possible conflict of interest...


Note the nose dive the amounts took after 2016: could it be those who had been so eager to patronize the Trumps in 2016 decided that maybe it wasn't in their best interests to be associated with the semblance of graft or with the taint that become the hallmark of the Trump regime?...


Remember, every time The Fraudfather goes to Trump tower, or Mar-a-lago, or any of the other Trump properties he and his spawn insist on staying at, those properties bill back to the US Government for all the services and goods used by the Trumps, their minions, guest, and even the Secret Service; Trump family businesses are actually making a tidy profit every time they go to their own properties and bill us, the taxpayers, for their luxuries; if you recall, the in May of 2019, Trump met with the Irish Prime Minister, in Ireland, and they had their meeting in the VIP Lounge at Shannon Airport; the Irish PM had wanted to host Trump at an Irish Government owned castle, where other prior Presidents had been hosted, but Trump insisted the meeting be held at the Trump golf course and hotel in Doonbeg; the PM nixed the idea, most likely because the Irish Government would be billed but the Trump facility and hosting at the castle would be essentially free; so, the airport VIP Lounge it was...


President Trump will meet the Irish prime minister — at the airport --

https://www.vox.com/world/2019/5/29/...hannon-airport


Add to the equations how many of the US government personnel and events have been 'innocently' steered to Trump properties and the air of 'innocence' turns into the acrid stench of graft...

...and this just the tip of the iceberg; add in how, for example, Kushner, Don Jr, and Ivanka, among others in the Trump organization, have been using their positions in the White House to get taxpayer-billed transportation to ostensibly engage in 'official government business' while also making use of those trips to conduct Trump family business meetings; Kusher, alone, has cost the US taxpayers a tidy sum when he makes those trips to Saudi Arabia and finds it convenient to conduct family business with their Saudi business partners...


I do know one thing for an absolute certainty: if Obama and his family, or the Clintons, were engaged in this sort of ripping off of the taxpayers, the GOP would be up on their hind legs, howling loudly in protest and demanding an impeachment. Anybody think that wouldn't happen?...







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[vienna]

Originally Posted by MaDef

Before I take your word for it, how about citing some sources for your information? there's a world of difference between a blind trust and being an active board member of a corporation.

Would this do?...


How Don Jr., Ivanka, and Eric Trump Have Profited Off Their Dad's Presidency --

https://www.gq.com/story/trump-kids-profit-presidency


Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner made as much as $135m last year --

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ue-income-2018


Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump made at least $82 million in outside income last year while serving in the White House, filings show --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...569_story.html


Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner Made $82 Million While Working in the White House Last Year --

https://fortune.com/2018/06/11/ivank...g-white-house/



...and, of course, Daddy's gotta get a taste:


Ka-Ching - Donald Trump is raking in big bucks from emoluments foreign and domestic. ---

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...count-the-ways




Let us know if you need more; there's tons of this information out there in the real world beyond Fox News...











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