Playable destroyers??

Furia · 09-30-19, 10:07 AM

Last saturday I got a mail from onkel Neal announcing Wolfpack Single Player mode, but the thing that really got my attention was this sentence "and that Holy Grail of all u-boat sims--playable destroyers for massive player vs player convoy battles"

This not only got my attention but got me really excited

I know the sim is still in early access and that this possibility is nowhere near yet however I have tried to find in the forum any mention about playable destroyers and I have found nothing of relevance on this sense (maybe I have missed it)

Is there any information about the plans regarding playable destroyers available?
Will this be within Wolfpack or it would be another sim that can "connect" with Wolfpack as we did with SH2 and DC.
Would we have only playable destroyers or also corvette like the Flower class?

Any info is more than welcomed!

Stormfly · 09-30-19, 08:23 PM

yes, i got it too ....thought allready nobody would ask that, but now there is a very good chance that this dream come true as the dev´s are very close to us !

btw, can you renember project "Messerwetzer"

regarding discussions about additional rooms, i want mine on a sloop or destroyer, bridge/radio and step down sonar room, this will add a huge gameplay element, the escort-sim itself and of course pvp.

...hmmm where did i put this table which give you u-boat`s dept, when the active sonar breaks up while approaching it slowly, that with this this special angel hmmh...

i realy hope for huge sales so more man power could help, there is so much to do first.

Raptor_341 · 10-01-19, 09:09 PM

Honestly, I have very little interest in U-boat only simulations, as I have a personal aversion to playing Kriegsmarine only. For some reason, Allied and even other nations like Italy often get overlooked in simulations. All this to say, I have been standing off from Wolfpack until the recent announcement reference playable destroyers. Ever since Destroyer Command, I've been waiting for another good surface combatant simulation, and if Wolfpack can get there and really simulate both sides of the Battle of the Atlantic I'd support it 100%.

Standing by for details, but if this is a serious effort I'll be buying in.

PeterS · 10-02-19, 07:18 AM

I will probably not make any friends here with this statement, but I'd rather have the team to focus the available non-infinite resources on perfecting the U-Boat simulation instead of adding playable surface vessels resulting in a half-baked neither-is-perfect tries-to-be-everything game.

I'm also dreaming of such a game, but I'd rather get one aspect finished than an overpromising feature-creep "Marine Citizen" game.

Superesse · 10-02-19, 07:51 AM

Agree with PeterS!

Pisces · 10-02-19, 09:42 AM

Yeah, it's not on the roadmap. So don't count on it. It's great that someone is doing the prep-work in modeling (escort channel in Wolfpack Discord). But there is a looooooooong way to go before this is going to be added.

Fidd · 12-08-19, 05:17 PM

Interesting. Here's a question though, if one has a perfectly modelled u-boat sim, and docile merchants, but predictable escorting, do you really still have a perfectly modelled sim?

I would argue not. If you know not where an escort may move next, at what speed, and if it detects you, how long it will persist with the hunt and what depths the pistols on the charges will be set to - then you have gone a long way towards the perfect sim.

In other words, the best possible U-boat sim must incorporate human controlled escorts, or an exceedingly good AI. I imagine the former is rather easier, and it had the added bonus of the PVP dimension...

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterS

I will probably not make any friends here with this statement, but I'd rather have the team to focus the available non-infinite resources on perfecting the U-Boat simulation instead of adding playable surface vessels resulting in a half-baked neither-is-perfect tries-to-be-everything game.

I'm also dreaming of such a game, but I'd rather get one aspect finished than an overpromising feature-creep "Marine Citizen" game.

Fidd · 12-09-19, 07:40 PM

I've found it interesting recently to consider the possible roles and organisation on playable escorts. It seems fairly obvious that as far as practical, these should be organised along very similar lines, with a few additions and omissions, to those on the U-boats. The advantages being that players are already familiar with them, and therefore if you like playing one on the U-boat you'll enjoy the same on the ship and vice versa.

So, I think we'd "need":

Convoy commander:
Sets intitial disposition of AI escorts, the correct station of which remaining visible to human players who subsequently take-over escorts as captains. Can detach some, but not all, escorts to prosecute dc attacks, and or call them back. Sets overall speed of convoy to speed of slowest ship. Sets intervals heading changes, which AI merchants and AI escorts follow. Human controlled escorts are shown on map where at any instant they should be to follow commanded zig-zag path? CC can also change the positions of AI merchants to fill "holes" in the convoy if ships are lost. Such ships fill in from the rear of the convoy, and can only do so in the event of a sinking. This prevents continuous reorganisation being employed as an exploit to keep ships on unpredicatable heading changes.

Captain - decision maker as on the U-boat, being fed information from various sources. Authorises searchlight use. Has authority to ring DC Klaxon independent of DC officer?

Helmsman, almost exactly the same as per U-boat but fed information from asdic operator so as to bring escort over the top of asdic contact or as directed by captain. Also able to adopt a pre-programmed "lost contact" set of manoeuvres/telegraph speeds to help asdic operator reacquire the U-boat.

Asdic operator/Hydrophone operator. As these two roles are mutually exclusive, it seems sensible to combine them so a human player can do one or t'other. Early asdics purely aural, later with graphical trace and still later with depth trace (slant-range). Has "simultaneous echo" bell, the sound of which alerts DC officer to drop charges. Captain (alone) may also, independently, ring the bell, to allow for non-standard routine, allowing him to bet on which way the U-boat may turn during evasion period of DC attack.
(we don't want the situation where escort crews are compelled to drop DC's at 'simultaneous echo' ensuring a miss provided that the U-boat crew evade at full-speed/hard rudder over, at "splashes".)

DC operator. Hears bell, hits klaxon button, causing some or all dc weapons, be they over the back, squids, (hedgehogs fired separately), to fire. Alerts captain when all reloaded. DC must fuse all DC's 30 seconds before launch to depth ordered by captain or asdic officer. Such depths are in bands A, B, C and so forth which relate to depth intervals, the charges exploding somewhere within the band set.

Lookouts. During day operate binoculars, serve as gun-crews as applicable. At night operate searchlights at direction of captain.

Guns: Operates principal (front) main armament, and has range-finding optics. Other players may man rear turrets if available, being fed range as per Gun's rangefinder value. Used exclusively for U-boats caught on, or compelled to, the surface.

Radio Operator
Liases with other escorts, if Convoy commander exists on his ship, transmits his orders via signal lamp/morse. Any lookout with eyes on another escort using signal lamps causes meaning to arrive on signal log, in similar manner to radio messages arriving in the U-boat log. Recieves DF plots from UK of the "4 U-boats thought to be in your area" variety, and can locally DF transmitting U-boats with a single bearing if he acquires and monitors the correct wavelength. If U-boats sending unencrypted, he receives as plain language, if not, merely the cypher-text.

Navigator/ Has charted plot of convoy, automatically overlain with zig-zag paths and positions of escorts. Advises Convoy commander of nearest escorts to detach for DC attacks. In all likelihood it would be unusual to detach corvettes because of their limited speed.

So much for the positions on escorts.

Other thoughts:
1. DC's should be limited, but great in number.

2. Explosion of DC's should make asdic unreliable, increasingly with every dc dropped, for time taken for water to de-aerate, so broadly speaking, if you continuously drop charges deep in a single area, it will become harder to discriminate clear return echoes, and will persist longer with depth of detonation.

3. Explosion of DC's should confer vertical control difficulties to U-boats, possibly causing inadvertent surfacing. Any human crewed escort's guns must be crewed to open fire, else AI fires star-shells in general area if at night.

4. Destruction of U-boat to bring air, small to large oil patch and flotsam to surface. Non-lethal damage to U-boat may create small oil-trail to appear, eventually, on surface. U-boat captain may fire flotsam, air and oil to attempt to fool the escort above, which may work if he's undetected during the escorts "lost contact" asdic search.

5. Consideration should be given to more progressive and nuanced damage-model to U-boats, so that they experience (typically) more and more dc's, but with less permament damage unless a near direct-hit is achieved. The aim being to give the crew below a lot to contend with to keep the boat under-control, and not broached or sunk to crush-depth. It might be a nice feature for both U-boat crews and escorts to see a playable film post-mission, showing the dc's exploding as they were dropped during the game, with the ability to "step into" either escort or U-boat to experience the action from either point of vie; post game. Post viewing, these could be converted to a viewable film, or, as a file playable within an installed copy of Wolfpack, so we could all have a laugh about who we were sure we'd sunk but who wriggled away, or the "fluke" hit we achieved. Or indeed the teamwork within the U-boat to contend with all the problems the dc attacks were causing!

Evidently this is a more or less complete "wish-list", I'd be interested to hear what people think, and what other wrinkles they can think of I've overlooked, beyond ruining the poor dev's vacation plans!

09-30-19, 10:07 AM	#1
Furia Surface Shepherd Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 215 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	Playable destroyers?? Last saturday I got a mail from onkel Neal announcing Wolfpack Single Player mode, but the thing that really got my attention was this sentence "and that Holy Grail of all u-boat sims--playable destroyers for massive player vs player convoy battles" This not only got my attention but got me really excited I know the sim is still in early access and that this possibility is nowhere near yet however I have tried to find in the forum any mention about playable destroyers and I have found nothing of relevance on this sense (maybe I have missed it) Is there any information about the plans regarding playable destroyers available? Will this be within Wolfpack or it would be another sim that can "connect" with Wolfpack as we did with SH2 and DC. Would we have only playable destroyers or also corvette like the Flower class? Any info is more than welcomed! __________________ Peace and freedom are not free.

09-30-19, 08:23 PM	#2
Stormfly Serial Port Protector Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,424 Downloads: 366 Uploads: 0	yes, i got it too ....thought allready nobody would ask that, but now there is a very good chance that this dream come true as the dev´s are very close to us ! btw, can you renember project "Messerwetzer" regarding discussions about additional rooms, i want mine on a sloop or destroyer, bridge/radio and step down sonar room, this will add a huge gameplay element, the escort-sim itself and of course pvp. ...hmmm where did i put this table which give you u-boat`s dept, when the active sonar breaks up while approaching it slowly, that with this this special angel hmmh... i realy hope for huge sales so more man power could help, there is so much to do first. __________________ Stormy...... Last edited by Stormfly; 09-30-19 at 10:21 PM.

10-01-19, 09:09 PM	#3
Raptor_341 Loader Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 89 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Honestly, I have very little interest in U-boat only simulations, as I have a personal aversion to playing Kriegsmarine only. For some reason, Allied and even other nations like Italy often get overlooked in simulations. All this to say, I have been standing off from Wolfpack until the recent announcement reference playable destroyers. Ever since Destroyer Command, I've been waiting for another good surface combatant simulation, and if Wolfpack can get there and really simulate both sides of the Battle of the Atlantic I'd support it 100%. Standing by for details, but if this is a serious effort I'll be buying in. __________________ MAD MARK, FULL SCALE!

10-02-19, 09:42 AM	#6
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,892 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	Yeah, it's not on the roadmap. So don't count on it. It's great that someone is doing the prep-work in modeling (escort channel in Wolfpack Discord). But there is a looooooooong way to go before this is going to be added. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

10-02-19, 07:18 AM	#4
PeterS Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 14 Downloads: 83 Uploads: 0	I will probably not make any friends here with this statement, but I'd rather have the team to focus the available non-infinite resources on perfecting the U-Boat simulation instead of adding playable surface vessels resulting in a half-baked neither-is-perfect tries-to-be-everything game. I'm also dreaming of such a game, but I'd rather get one aspect finished than an overpromising feature-creep "Marine Citizen" game.

10-02-19, 07:51 AM	#5
Superesse Seaman Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 34 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Agree with PeterS!

12-09-19, 07:40 PM	#8
Fidd XO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Blighty! Posts: 418 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I've found it interesting recently to consider the possible roles and organisation on playable escorts. It seems fairly obvious that as far as practical, these should be organised along very similar lines, with a few additions and omissions, to those on the U-boats. The advantages being that players are already familiar with them, and therefore if you like playing one on the U-boat you'll enjoy the same on the ship and vice versa. So, I think we'd "need": Convoy commander: Sets intitial disposition of AI escorts, the correct station of which remaining visible to human players who subsequently take-over escorts as captains. Can detach some, but not all, escorts to prosecute dc attacks, and or call them back. Sets overall speed of convoy to speed of slowest ship. Sets intervals heading changes, which AI merchants and AI escorts follow. Human controlled escorts are shown on map where at any instant they should be to follow commanded zig-zag path? CC can also change the positions of AI merchants to fill "holes" in the convoy if ships are lost. Such ships fill in from the rear of the convoy, and can only do so in the event of a sinking. This prevents continuous reorganisation being employed as an exploit to keep ships on unpredicatable heading changes. Captain - decision maker as on the U-boat, being fed information from various sources. Authorises searchlight use. Has authority to ring DC Klaxon independent of DC officer? Helmsman, almost exactly the same as per U-boat but fed information from asdic operator so as to bring escort over the top of asdic contact or as directed by captain. Also able to adopt a pre-programmed "lost contact" set of manoeuvres/telegraph speeds to help asdic operator reacquire the U-boat. Asdic operator/Hydrophone operator. As these two roles are mutually exclusive, it seems sensible to combine them so a human player can do one or t'other. Early asdics purely aural, later with graphical trace and still later with depth trace (slant-range). Has "simultaneous echo" bell, the sound of which alerts DC officer to drop charges. Captain (alone) may also, independently, ring the bell, to allow for non-standard routine, allowing him to bet on which way the U-boat may turn during evasion period of DC attack. (we don't want the situation where escort crews are compelled to drop DC's at 'simultaneous echo' ensuring a miss provided that the U-boat crew evade at full-speed/hard rudder over, at "splashes".) DC operator. Hears bell, hits klaxon button, causing some or all dc weapons, be they over the back, squids, (hedgehogs fired separately), to fire. Alerts captain when all reloaded. DC must fuse all DC's 30 seconds before launch to depth ordered by captain or asdic officer. Such depths are in bands A, B, C and so forth which relate to depth intervals, the charges exploding somewhere within the band set. Lookouts. During day operate binoculars, serve as gun-crews as applicable. At night operate searchlights at direction of captain. Guns: Operates principal (front) main armament, and has range-finding optics. Other players may man rear turrets if available, being fed range as per Gun's rangefinder value. Used exclusively for U-boats caught on, or compelled to, the surface. Radio Operator Liases with other escorts, if Convoy commander exists on his ship, transmits his orders via signal lamp/morse. Any lookout with eyes on another escort using signal lamps causes meaning to arrive on signal log, in similar manner to radio messages arriving in the U-boat log. Recieves DF plots from UK of the "4 U-boats thought to be in your area" variety, and can locally DF transmitting U-boats with a single bearing if he acquires and monitors the correct wavelength. If U-boats sending unencrypted, he receives as plain language, if not, merely the cypher-text. Navigator/ Has charted plot of convoy, automatically overlain with zig-zag paths and positions of escorts. Advises Convoy commander of nearest escorts to detach for DC attacks. In all likelihood it would be unusual to detach corvettes because of their limited speed. So much for the positions on escorts. Other thoughts: 1. DC's should be limited, but great in number. 2. Explosion of DC's should make asdic unreliable, increasingly with every dc dropped, for time taken for water to de-aerate, so broadly speaking, if you continuously drop charges deep in a single area, it will become harder to discriminate clear return echoes, and will persist longer with depth of detonation. 3. Explosion of DC's should confer vertical control difficulties to U-boats, possibly causing inadvertent surfacing. Any human crewed escort's guns must be crewed to open fire, else AI fires star-shells in general area if at night. 4. Destruction of U-boat to bring air, small to large oil patch and flotsam to surface. Non-lethal damage to U-boat may create small oil-trail to appear, eventually, on surface. U-boat captain may fire flotsam, air and oil to attempt to fool the escort above, which may work if he's undetected during the escorts "lost contact" asdic search. 5. Consideration should be given to more progressive and nuanced damage-model to U-boats, so that they experience (typically) more and more dc's, but with less permament damage unless a near direct-hit is achieved. The aim being to give the crew below a lot to contend with to keep the boat under-control, and not broached or sunk to crush-depth. It might be a nice feature for both U-boat crews and escorts to see a playable film post-mission, showing the dc's exploding as they were dropped during the game, with the ability to "step into" either escort or U-boat to experience the action from either point of vie; post game. Post viewing, these could be converted to a viewable film, or, as a file playable within an installed copy of Wolfpack, so we could all have a laugh about who we were sure we'd sunk but who wriggled away, or the "fluke" hit we achieved. Or indeed the teamwork within the U-boat to contend with all the problems the dc attacks were causing! Evidently this is a more or less complete "wish-list", I'd be interested to hear what people think, and what other wrinkles they can think of I've overlooked, beyond ruining the poor dev's vacation plans!