[TEC] Question about rudders (for modders, and not)

[VonDos]

Hi everyone!

I'm trying to mod a ship with 3 rudders, as in this scheme:



I've fixed the 3D models, placed them into .dat file, and linked the "rudders" option into sim file.

After a first test, under water i can see:



Central and left rudders are working. Right one, no.
I've verifyed the sim file. It was ok.
Rudders' array order was [1]Central, [2]Left, [3]Right, [4]empty
I've modified ther order, for try. Next test:


(Sorry for the strange shape )

This time, array order was [1]Right, [2]Left, [3]Central, [4]empty
Well, it appear that only first 2 rudders in numeric order are working ingame.
To delete the empty array doesn't change anithing.

So the question is, can i have more than 2 rudders working, or should i "animate" only the central one and leave the others static, or i should delete them at all? (Historically talking, they were accurate)...


Best regards,
Vd

[Anvar1061]

Originally Posted by VonDos

So the question is, can i have more than 2 rudders working, or should i "animate" only the central one and leave the others static, or i should delete them at al

I count 2-nd. If there is no other way.

[Jeff-Groves]

Why did you put 4 rudders in the sim if one is empty
and you only have 3 rudders on the ship?

[VonDos]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Why did you put 4 rudders in the sim if one is empty
and you only have 3 rudders on the ship?

Initially i just created 3 arrays (central, left, right), after test failures while searching in other ship's sim files i noticed a lot of units have an extra array item empty.

For example:

Rudders
- objects
-- [0] = AC-4_rudder
-- [1] =

(from USS Cyclops)


So i try to add the fourth array empty, despite my ship had 3 rudders.
Anithing changed.
Best regards, Vd

[Jeff-Groves]

I missed that you did say you deleted the empty.
I guess the reason for an empty object is the Dev's tools had 2 rudder objects as a template when building a Unit.
I'd also guess 2 is the limit or the template would have had more.

[Jeff-Groves]

I did a crazy thought as a quick test.
I added to the sim as below....


Now I didn't actually add an object as a 3rd rudder in the sim at this point.
I saved the new sim and ran SH3 with it to see if the Game crashed.
I was able to view the Ship in Museum with no problems so it "Might" be a work around.

[VonDos]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I did a crazy thought as a quick test.
I added to the sim as below....


Now I didn't actually add an object as a 3rd rudder in the sim at this point.
I saved the new sim and ran SH3 with it to see if the Game crashed.
I was able to view the Ship in Museum with no problems so it "Might" be a work around.

Thank you for the help.
Now, i've tested this idea.
Game didn't crash, but only take data from first unit_Ship (central rudder OR L + R rudders) instead of both.
So, in a test only the central rudder works, in the other, inverting ID number, only side rudders work

[Jeff-Groves]

Well. We know you can only have 2 Rudders then by conventional controllers.



Not being a geometry expert I'll ask a question.
Is it possible to link 3D objects to get the effect of a 3rd rudder based on SH3?
Now what I mean is CAN We link somethings to get a rotation point where we want it?
That may take many compounded links.

Just trying to think out of a box!

[VonDos]

Think out of a box is always a good thing

Now, the problem is the need of 3 different fulcrums (and rotation axis), because simply joint the 3dmodel of 2 rudders is not enought.

Now, a couple of questions in my mind:

- what objects in SH3 can rotate ingame? I mean, rudders, propellers, turrets, radars\rangefinders (well, they're turrets that doesn't make bang)...

- what parameters couple the rudder with its rotation when the ship turn left or right? It's just the "rudder" assegnation, or this can be done also from something different, i.e. a turret?

Best regards,
Vd

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Well. We know you can only have 2 Rudders then by conventional controllers.



Not being a geometry expert I'll ask a question.
Is it possible to link 3D objects to get the effect of a 3rd rudder based on SH3?
Now what I mean is CAN We link somethings to get a rotation point where we want it?
That may take many compounded links.

Just trying to think out of a box!

[Jeff-Groves]

I've been brain storming this and may have a way to get the effect.
It's going to take me some time to work it all out but I'm pretty sure it will be good enough!

[Mister_M]

Hello,

My idea is to add the third rudder (one of the two small rudders) as a static object (not controlled by the .sim file), but being the child node of the other small rudder (which is controlled by the .sim). In order to keep the own axis of rotation of the child rudder, you have to add to it (the child rudder) a controller called "follow parent" : in it, you allow only the Y rotation (not XYZ translations and not XZ rotations). It should work.

Now there are two small drawbacks :

- if the third rudder is destroyed, then it won't affect the capability of the ship to turn.

- if the parent rudder is destroyed, then the other small rudder (child) will be also destroyed.

[VonDos]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I've been brain storming this and may have a way to get the effect.
It's going to take me some time to work it all out but I'm pretty sure it will be good enough!

I'm really curious now let me know when ready

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Hello,

My idea is to add the third rudder (one of the two small rudders) as a static object (not controlled by the .sim file), but being the child node of the other small rudder (which is controlled by the .sim). In order to keep the own axis of rotation of the child rudder, you have to add to it (the child rudder) a controller called "follow parent" : in it, you allow only the Y rotation (not XYZ translations and not XZ rotations). It should work.

Now there are two small drawbacks :

- if the third rudder is destroyed, then it won't affect the capability of the ship to turn.

- if the parent rudder is destroyed, then the other small rudder (child) will be also destroyed.

I tried your suggested method. I add the third rudder as a child of the second (working) rudder, using coordinates to place it in the right place (different X, same Y and Z), added controller, only Y rotation attivated, but while in 3Ditor the third rudder appear in right place, ingame you can't see it, and if you use the ship's camera, you can see her only from far (i suppose 3rd rudder is finished far from the ship...)
What i'm doing wrong? What coordinates should i assign to 3rd rudder? Node's XYZ, and "default" inside controller.


Best regards,
Vd

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by VonDos

I tried your suggested method. I add the third rudder as a child of the second (working) rudder, using coordinates to place it in the right place (different X, same Y and Z), added controller, only Y rotation attivated, but while in 3Ditor the third rudder appear in right place, ingame you can't see it, and if you use the ship's camera, you can see her only from far (i suppose 3rd rudder is finished far from the ship...)
What i'm doing wrong? What coordinates should i assign to 3rd rudder? Node's XYZ, and "default" inside controller.

So, probably this controller works only for generated particles elements.

Did you search for another "follow parent" controller, sometimes there are two controllers but with slightly different names...

Else, you could try the same method as for complexe guns (with special rotation of reticles or wheels depending on the barrel movement, see the vii u-boot's deck gun for example).

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Else, you could try the same method as for complexe guns (with special rotation of reticles or wheels depending on the barrel movement, see the vii u-boot's deck gun for example).

Actually, it probably won't work, because you can't call any animation from the rudder parameters section in ship.sim. But you should still try.

Another solution : add an object generator (as a child node of the right small rudder) to spawn a small left rudder with high frequency (to keep a smooth movement when the parent rudder is turning), and with the follow parent controller to keep the axis of rotation in a constant position.