RA - Can a Sierra II defeat a 688?

[Stewy1]

G'day guys,

Honest question about tactics - I set up a quick mission scenario, where me in a Sierra II has to try and kill a lurking Flt 1 688, in the deep water off Kamchatka.

I had real trouble getting close enough to without getting counter-detected (and getting a TIW) - I ended up getting to 5.5 NM (10, 186m) on his beam, at 1 knot, without being heard. I think if I reeled in the TA at that range, he'd hear me.

Naturally, as soon as I fire, all hell breaks looks and he fires back with Adcaps. The Sierra's speed (and the right course and decoy pattern) can usually dodge them, but both my torps (Test-71M and USET-80) seem to be easily avoided by him at that range.

I even tried the 'Ramius' tactic and rushed him at flank to close the range before firing, but that didn't seem to work.

I've only tried this a couple of times, and must confess I've only had time for one round of 'fire and evade' (i.e., not going quiet after beating his torp and getting back into an attacking position for Round 2) - so more training is needed - but do you have any tactics that might help level the playing field in this scenario?

Getting into into position for an 'up the butt' shot is very challenging, given the slow speed and distance needed to not be heard. I don't even know if that would make a difference?

Please don't reply with, "That's so easy, you're such a noob!" - Honest question about tactics here. Am running unmodded 1.50.3 at the moment (I have 1.51 - just haven't had time to install it)

Cheers guys,
Stew

[Kapitan]

I certainly can see potential for a couple of options but I would need more detail.

1) is it a generic quick mission or one you designed ?

2) Do you know if he has his TA deployed?

3) What's the layer depth and are you on the same layer or above or below?

4) are you trying to approach from the stern abeam or bow?

688s from flt I to III have a small blind spot abeam, their 090 and 270 areas (modeled in game) are not covered by the spherical array or towed array, it gives some window there.

Personally I would be trying to approach almost head on or to one side, below the layer he is on or above depending on depth, and slow 3 knots, if possible ride the layer.

Evasion is a different matter if you get a TIW you need to drop decoys and turn 90 degrees it should take you out of the cone, also try and put the layer between you and the weapon.
You will do these turns several times to shake a torpedo, the problem with running at speed is you wash your own sensors out effectively loosing track of the weapon and the OPFOR submarine (which is what he wants), sprint and drift but also maybe fire a torpedo or two down the bearing line.

He will then have to evade as well making a lot of noise then you can reposition yourself and wait and see where he goes.

[Stewy1]

Thanks Kapitan for those helpful points. Just some answers:

1. Just a quick scenario I whipped up - placed a 688 in some water, placed my Sierra II 10ish miles away

2. No - I thought all AI subs had their TAs deployed?

3. I was on the same layer as he was - I didn't think firing under the layer would make a big difference from that range - is that wrong?

4. Just by chance (he was running random in a box) I came at from the bow. I drew a 5.5 NM circle around him and tried the 'follow' the edge of it around at 1-2 kts until I was on his beam - I figured if I didn't then, the range would start to increase (he was going 5 kts)

Thanks for those evasion tips - I need to do more sprinting and drifting!

I also need to study the weapons manual more - I usually just fire on 'default settings' Maybe giving him a passive torp would make him think a bit more??

Stew

[John Pancoast]

Passive torpedo is a good idea, but be sure to set the speed to 40 knots. 55 and it won't work.
Another old trick from 688i that works is to make sure your torpedo depth is just under the surface and just above the floor, so the torpedo can search a larger area.
If you're in very deep water to the floor, just set it real deep somewhere.
Last but not least, don't forget about snapshots. Especially against a better sub, they can come in handy.
And drop the movie tactics.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Thanks Kapitan for those helpful points. Just some answers:

1. Just a quick scenario I whipped up - placed a 688 in some water, placed my Sierra II 10ish miles away

2. No - I thought all AI subs had their TAs deployed?

3. I was on the same layer as he was - I didn't think firing under the layer would make a big difference from that range - is that wrong?

4. Just by chance (he was running random in a box) I came at from the bow. I drew a 5.5 NM circle around him and tried the 'follow' the edge of it around at 1-2 kts until I was on his beam - I figured if I didn't then, the range would start to increase (he was going 5 kts)

Thanks for those evasion tips - I need to do more sprinting and drifting!

I also need to study the weapons manual more - I usually just fire on 'default settings' Maybe giving him a passive torp would make him think a bit more??

Stew

Thanks for the info so what I will do when I get home either tomorrow or Friday is run a similar mission using the Sierra and run up against a 688 and see where I get to on that (mainly now you have spiked my curiosity)

Do you know what type of bottom your using is it mud rock sand? are you using convergence zone or any other layer type?

As for TA off the top of my head here I do believe you have to check the box in mission editor for them to deploy it if not they don't do it.
Also if your going into a knife fight sometimes having a towed array can be a hinderance rather than a help as its easily lost during high speed and turns plus it also can confuse your collated data giving you map tracks that are inaccurate.

For a TA to be effective it basically needs to be straight, one way you detect another target is by finding the ghost, basically your TA will show the real target and a mirrored ghost, a turn of 45 degrees will show you which is which just watch the track on the nav map the one that doesn't change is the real target.
This takes times too a turn to 45 degree at 5 knots and having to wait for the TA to go straight can take 5-10 mins in some cases depending on what your doing.

One thing Dangerous Waters actually does well is model the different types of environments for submarines, it does well with modeling convergence zones a bottom limited and layers, so yes absolutely use those layers they can make a difference.
Being below or above him in a separate layer often is the difference between finding him quickly or at all, something you get to learn on the FFG rather quickly in blue water ops.

The layer isn't magical its not a invisibility cloak but it can delay the detection long enough for you to get close and shoot, but be advised just as he will have a harder time trying to detect you the reverse is also true.

In your point 4 there I can see what you did and I fully understand where you were going with it.
Ideally you need to be behind the boat but as I mentioned earlier the 688 seems to have a sonar blind spot on its beam at 090 and 270.

Having a submarine beam on is oddly the second best position for you to detect him, but guess what if your beam on to him its also his second best position to detect you.

Just like weapon arcs your sonars have arcs as well, with a sierra the bow sonar is I'm assuming (never really played a sierra) like the akula it will cover at 120 degree arc forward roughly.
By following him around the circle you have drawn you have done 2 things.
1. Turned beam on the second best position for him to detect you
2. you have put him into your farthest region of sonar, he can easily escape if your not paying attention to the screen when he turns, theoretically you could also miss a critical TIW warning (unlikely with DW).

The merry dance is very complex it is also a very narrow and tight window of operation and believe me you will sit there for hours trying to second, third and fourth guess the AI (its even harder when your playing a human)

Sprint and drift in evasion should be something like this:

Imagine your sub is on course 000 @5 knots 100m layer is 200m ocean depth 1000+m

Enemy submarine is at the same depth heading 270 at 5 knots 10nm from you

0000 TIW @ 090 (now you can fire right down line of bearing if your confident in your track and the torpedo is for you this should cause your enemy to run) if you don't snapshot then look below this will be if you want to put yourself in a more favorable position or don't want to expose yourself too much. times are rough guides not entirely accurate

0001 Start working on a conformation that the TIW is heading for your boat
0003 For this Ex it is so now you drop CMs at your depth turn to 315 increase 15 knots and dive 225m

Explanation: Most if not all torpedoes have a conical seeker looking out roughly 45 degrees from its center which means in a straight pattern that torpedo will be seeking a target in the range of 253 to 292.
By being at 315 your keeping out of the seekers head and by sprinting your putting distance between you and the enemy boat.
Diving below the layer will also help confuse the seeker as its going to be initially looking for you on the layer it was fired.

0008 slow to 5 knots re establish the torpedo track find out what its doing, don't spend too long doing this

0010 Drop second set of CMs speed 15 knots turn 045 stay on same depth

0013 slow to 5 knots re acquire torpedo track again confirm its position

Explanation: Your re confirming the torpedo to see if A its gone active and B if its changed its pattern to a snake style search, the reason for the turn to 045 is that the torpedo will snake roughly 45 degrees, by being at 045 you should be just out side its cone.

0016 you should have escaped this torpedo so now you need to focus on the platform that fired it, being below the layer will help slightly but your detection ability may not be great.
With all the CMs and torpedo out there the enemy will be trying to look for you through a search light the reality is you have moved some distance and now your in clearer water.

At this point you can counter fire with some ease.

As for firing on default settings this is a common thing most human players do and you really shouldn't, the AI fires on default settings most of the time i found which is why you should be able to escape easily

As pointed out by John Pancoast

Passive torpedo is a good idea, but be sure to set the speed to 40 knots. 55 and it won't work.
Another old trick from 688i that works is to make sure your torpedo depth is just under the surface and just above the floor, so the torpedo can search a larger area.
If you're in very deep water to the floor, just set it real deep somewhere.
Last but not least, don't forget about snapshots. Especially against a better sub, they can come in handy

I've seen first hand this method employed while on HMS Talent during an exercise.
Not 100% fool proof but for game purposes it works but not all the time depends on how the AI / Human responds

I would also defiantly go into the DWX weapons manuals found in the game files, I would also suggest reading the seawolves blue and red books which you can download from subsim.

Because I am a bit of an anorak I have mine all printed out in a file and sub divided

[John Pancoast]

Stewy1, another minor tip involving snapshots. If you've had to go defensive against another sub, firing off a snapshot before doing so is generally a good idea. Also, always enable a snapshot right away; don't wait for it to reach it's rte distance. Always have a torpedo set up for a snapshot beforehand. You don't want to waste evasion time while defensive setting it up.
It gives the other guy something to deal with while you're trying to defeat his torpedo.
Otherwise, he can just continue to drive in for the kill, unconcerned. You're not necessarily trying for a kill, you just want to keep the other guy busy too.
It's an old flight sim (maybe real life too, don't know) tactic in a bvr fight against a better combat jet and it can work with subs too, with the added benefit that acoustic torpedoes tend to be more dangerous/harder to shake than any jet missle for various reasons.
Also, Kapitan has some great advice. To add, when defensive you're also trying to have the torpedo use up it's energy. You have an unlimited supply of it, the torpedo doesn't.
That is another (though minor) reason why you do the maneuvers he listed.

[Stewy1]

Thank you VERY much, Kapitan and John, for your very detailed answers. I really appreciate it.

I'm going to put your advice into a document and print it - it's very helpful.

Just for your interest, I uploaded the quick mission I made:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=6071

(This is now the correct link)



See if you can send that LA to the briny deep!
Thanks for ALL your help,
Stew

[Kapitan]

Mission report 688 V Sierra II using RA 1.53

This is what I have found note that I couldn’t play your mission you uploaded as it says it’s a 688 file (File is .mss should be .mu), so what I did was create my own scenario, set to war time and on the nav map placed a circle 20nm in diameter.
I then set the 688 and me to several dynamic locations so we shouldn’t show up in the same place all the time, I did a few dummy runs with show truth on to make sure dynamic location was working.

This mission was a pretty long one it took me 4 hours and 30 minuets most of which was spent on the sonar, and at the kettle making cups of tea.

This is the mission set up

Both 688 and Sierra II start at 250ft or 76m at 5 knots Ladder box patrol set up, 688 has his towed array deployed, the weather is clear sea state 3 bottom type is rock and there’s a convergence zone.

Sierra II Load out

Tube Number (1) USET 80 (2) USET 80 (3) TEST 71M (4) TEST 71M (5) SS-N-15 (6) Korund
Stores: (5) TEST 71M (3) SS-N-15 (5) USET 80 (8) Korund (0) PMT-1 (0) Skhval
Counter measures: Tubed: 1 Active 1 Passive Reloads: (17) Active (8) Passive

Notes: TEST 71M max depth 400m USET 80 max depth 1000m

Navigation notes: I have used both the 3 minuet and 6 minuet rules in this scenario if your not aware of what they are here is what they are

3 min rule: Speed x 100 = Yards travelled in 3 mins (multiply by 20 for the hour)
6 min rule: Speed / 10 = Miles travelled in 6 mins (you can multiply this by 10 for the hour)

Deck Log

1200 Enter into the game submarine is at 5 knots 76meters course 000
1201 Extended towed array noted layer is at 142m
1203 Reset all torpedo settings from default range set at 1500yrds speed 35knots ceiling 2m & max
1251 New contact detected changed course 270 contact started to vanish
1253 Course correction 290
1259 Contact lost changed course 320
1302 New course 000 to sweep Contact regained
1313 Turned to 060 to resolve ambiguity
1324 Turned again to 220 to resolve ambiguity
1333 Contact confirmed as own ship
1349 Dived to 500m



Reasons for my manoeuvres and settings: The settings on the weapons are such that the minimum safe distance from submarine is set 1500m I don’t want the torpedo arming too far out as the enemy boat maybe closer, also the ceiling is set to 2m and the torpedo maximum depth to give the weapon its full range.
The course changes are to confirm I have a ghost and correct track via the TA as I don’t have a hull contact, notice though I didn’t leave enough time to let the towed array go straight this is a mistake!
I kept turning to ID the track and should have let the TA straighten out I may have concluded quicker I was tracking my own ship, so here I have wasted about 40/45 minutes in tracking myself.

I have dived to well below the layer here 500m this will enable me to sprint and drift, although I do want some power to keep going forward hence why I return to 5 knots, the sub effectively drifts from 20knots to 5 knots which is enough in this instance.


1359 Increased speed 20 knots
1415 Decreased speed 5 knots
1528 Course change 340
1540 Increased speed 15 knots

Reasons for my manoeuvres: Right now at this point I have no contacts, so at this point I am projecting where he maybe, knowing that he is in the circle somewhere I decide to head towards the centre of the circle.
I have changed course to 340 and left 12 minutes to allow the towed array to go straight and see if any new contacts are out there, when satisfied there’s none I speed up to 15 knots, to sprint and drift for 6 minutes.

1546 Decreased speed 5 knots
1551 New contact
1552 Course change 300 to resolve Towed array ambiguity
1555 Ascending to 180 meters ambiguity resolved classified 688
1659 Decreased speed to 2 knots
1614 Increased speed 5 knots
1624 Ascending to 70m
1625 Decrease speed 4 knots



Reasons for my manoeuvres: After decreasing I go on the hunt again, and find a new contact, this time the hull and towed array are seeing the same contact so I turn to get a Master contact.
I initially ascend to 180 meters and set speed 2 knots as I don’t want to spook the contact.
Once I have a firm handle on the narrow band 50hz I increase to 5 knots and decrease depth to 70m this is to pop up above the layer.
I slow to 4 knots by mistake I could have stayed at 5 knots, however popping up you can go slower to 1knot this is almost the same as sprint and drift, it will make it harder for him to see you crossed the layer.

1626 HF Sonar detects object at bearing 277 sets HF Sonar mark on nav map visual confirm estimate target 2-3nm tracking left to right
1627 Tube 1 readied and fired USET 80
1628 Loud explosion bearing 288 close aboard 700 yards
1630 Mission end



Reasons for my manoeuvres: I have a slight hunch the enemy boat is fairly close my estimation put him 2-3nm from me so I figured I would have a look at the forward looking HF Sonar, this is me just trying to visualise the enemy and if I can see a blip and I do

I watch the HF sonar for a minuet and I know he is tracking left to right on my bow, the HF Sonar has put a mark on my nav map so I go to the weapons station and set my torpedo to go active at 500m, the reason I have done this is because 1. I want to see a reaction 2. He is close in and I don’t want to chance my guess too much.

I have selected tube 1 USET 80 in active mode, I know he has the MK48 ADCAP and at this range I don’t want to give him a chance to shoot back too quickly, for at least 60-90 seconds he will be trying to figure out what’s coming his way so that’s my window and I ready the Korund for firing. Down the same track as the torpedo.

Just before I fire, I am readying to dive to 500m and speed up to 25 knots and make a turn to 210 this will enable me to try and get outside his torpedo cone, at this point I’m also readying my countermeasures and preparing to reload and make another turn back to 300 once at depth.

I am also thinking he will make a turn to around 290 and speed up to get out of my torpedo cone, and he will likely dive below the layer, at this point I am almost lined up for a second shot if he does do this.
This is what some would call 3rd stage thinking as I’m trying to anticipate the next 2 moves the torpedo he will fire at me will make, and also the moves he is likely to make.

What I didn’t anticipate was that he was much closer than I thought being at a range of about 700 yards, this is where my prior planning for setting the weapon with a shorter enable range paid off.
But what I did notice was as soon as I fired he did seem to speed up and was turning, I noticed this on the HF sonar.

Edited note: I also draw out my course changes on paper so I don't have to keep switching to the nav map all the time, it looks like this, the red ink is enemy and you can see i note my bearing changes 1cm is roughly 1nm, its not accurate it just helps to keep me in some sort of picture to show me my own track.
The smaller drawing is my track and fire points the green box is my aim point the red line is the current enemy sub track. each dash line is roughly 0.5 nm hence my estimate of 2-3nm

Conclusion

So over all here is the big take away, notice in the earlier part of the mission I majorly screwed up by wasting time tracking myself, this is a schoolboy error on my part and I should have known better.
Sometimes simply projecting where the enemy maybe can work out and it did in this case, it doesn’t always go that way I simply in this instance got lucky.

I did watch the replay and he started off around 16 maybe 18nm away from me to the North West (I started in the South East corner of the circle again dynamic location was on my boat too). so, my theory of head for the centre in this case was correct. Don’t forget I did set multiple dynamic locations for this mission in various spots across the map.

On watching the replay, he initially started heading east, then turned south and spent a considerable time heading south too at least an hour, during this time I was screwing myself over tracking my own ship, but effectively we closed the gap between us during this time.

He turned west for about 8 minutes, then doubled back heading east before finally heading northeast and running right into me.

Personally, I simply got lucky here that’s all with the way it all worked out and managed to fire first. Had I been a bit ahead of him, and maybe on the same layer I think he likely would have fired on me first, I am fairly confident that if I re ran the mission chances are he would get the better of me.

[Stewy1]

Thanks Kapitan - well done for the kill - and thank you for the incredible responses. I'm going to study them!

Sorry for uploading the wrong mission file - it's fixed now at https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=6071

Wow - so you shot from 700 yards!! Talk about a knife fight! I suppose at that range, he wouldn't get a chance to fire back?

Thank you for your help.

And, I've nominated your post!
Stew

[Kapitan]

Thanks Stewy

At 700 yards the run time on that fish doing 35knots is going to be roughly 45 seconds.

I sometimes use a cheat sheet for conversions this might help you and it is faster than doing the math on the 3 or 6 minuet rules when things are moving quickly, I usually round up or down to make it easier.

Knots to Yards

You can Multiply this up for the hour (x60)

1 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 33.7562
2 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 67.5124
3 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 101.2686
4 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 135.0248
5 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 168.781
6 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 202.5372
7 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 236.2934
8 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 270.0496
9 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 303.8058
10 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 337.562
20 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 675.1239
30 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 1012.6859
40 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 1350.2479
50 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 1687.8099
60 Knots to Yards Per Minute = 2025.3718

Knots to Miles

You can divide this into minuets if required (/60)

1 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 1.1508
2 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 2.3016
3 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 3.4523
4 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 4.6031
5 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 5.7539
6 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 6.9047
7 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 8.0555
8 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 9.2062
9 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 10.357
10 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 11.5078
20 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 23.0156
30 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 34.5234
40 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 46.0312
50 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 57.539
60 Knots to Miles Per Hour = 69.0468

[Barleyman]

Someone actually managed to avoid a torpedo that's acquired your boat?

Usually my tactic is to say my prayers at that point and try to get the other guy with snapshot..

[Kapitan]

Yes there are ways to avoid, the trick is to be very very quick with your evasion if its close.

If the torpedo is coming at you in less than 1,500 yards your very unlikely to escape that.

You have a mediocre chance between 1,501- 4000 yards and beyond that it gives you time to move and reposition.

Typical tactic is to classify and confirm the inbound TIW, then turn while dropping CMs, sometimes diving deep doesn't help you the objective is to put distance between you and the torpedo you cant do that in a dive.

You will need to make a series of turns as well while dropping CMs

Your turns shouldn't really be more than 45 degrees in the opposing direction either.

[Barleyman]

For some reason my crew tends to have problems doing TMA on the torpedo to determine if it's heading in your way or not.. Once it's got your number and pinging merrily in your way you know for sure of course but it's a bit late at that point.

[Kapitan]

Auto crew can be a little slow at times, if its pinging i just use active intercept and assume its heading for me.

[KungPao]

Talking this from my memory. The Frequency of Torpedo is a good indication. When they acquire you , they change to a higher frequency

yes, just found this from RA manual folder

20000 MK 48 ADCAP
20000 MK 48 Mod 4

25000 MK 48 ADCAP Attack Mode
25000 MK 48 Mod 4 Attack Mode

Also the number of pin per second is another indication. On torp pin every 3 seconds is OK. But 3 pin per second, you are in big trouble.