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Old 04-15-2019, 09:37 PM   #31
Captain_AJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I tried setting up a group this evening to practice drills and SOP's but I couldn't get more than 3.

Maybe we can try and plan and schedule an hour to so to try all this out?
id like to be on this as well
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Old 04-16-2019, 04:30 PM   #32
derstosstrupp
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Session is posted for trying out SOPs!

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=240746
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:08 PM   #33
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Many good suggestions here.


In addition to standard procedures for diving, etc. I'd like to encourage the use of standardized verbal communication procedures, and maintaining "radio" (voice) dicipline when appropriate.

For inspiration, an american handbook on Standard Submarine Phraseology can be found here: https://maritime.org/doc/subphrase/index.htm


I'll quote the beginning of the handbook, which describes the basic concepts:

Quote:
VOICE PROCEDURES

1. Components of a message

The typical message on a submarine consists of call and text. The call is the name of the station being addressed. The text is the body of the message. For example:

After room, open the outer doors.
(call) (text)
In the rare cases when the source of a message is not obvious from the text, the identifying name of the sending station should be inserted following the call. For example: "Control, forward room, we heard a bumping noise along the hull."

The call is normally used because it serves the double purpose of alerting the correct listener and of helping to define the contents of the message. It should be omitted only when speed is essential and when the text of the message clearly indicates to whom it is addressed. For example: Rig for depth charge.-

2. Acknowledgments

Every message is acknowledged, but the method of acknowledgment varies with the type of message, as follows:

(a) Orders

Orders addressed to an individual or to a single compartment are acknowledged by repeating them back word for word. This repetition serves as a check on the accuracy of the reception of the order, and passes the word for action to other men in the compartment.

(Order) Forward room, set depth one ze-ro feet.
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, set depth one ze-ro feet.
Orders addressed to all compartments are acknowledged from forward aft by giving the name of the compartment and adding "aye".

(Order) All compartments, secure from depth charge.
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, aye.
Battery forward, aye. Etc.

2

(b) Reports
When the correct reception of its details is important, the report is repeated back word for word.

(Report) JP, contact, bearing two one ze-ro.
(Acknowledgment) JP, contact, bearing two one ze-ro.
When a report of a routine nature is heard directly by the person to whom it is addressed, "Very well" or "Aye, aye" is usually sufficient acknowledgment.

(c) Questions

When a question can be answered immediately, the answer in itself constitutes an acknowledgement. The answer should be worded so that it is clear that the question has been understood.

(Question) Forward room, how are your bilges?
(Answer) Control, forward room bilges are dry.
When a question cannot be answered immediately, the immediate acknowledgment is normally a repetition of the question and the word, "Wait". For questions of a routine nature, "Aye, aye," plus "Wait" is usually sufficient acknowledgment. In either case, the answer is given as soon as the information becomes available.

(Question) Forward room, how are your bilges?
(Acknowledgment) Forward room, how are your bilges? Wait.
(Answer) Control, six inches of water in forward room bilges.

3. Correction or change in a message

If the sender makes a mistake in giving a message, he says "Belay that" and gives the correct form.

Gyros forward, set gyros by hand ze-ro ze-ro fo-wer. Belay that.
Set gyros by hand ze-ro fo-wer fo-wer.
If the receiving station repeats a message incorrectly, the sender says "Belay that" and gives the correct message again.


3

4. Reports of execution
When an order has been carried out, this fact is reported to the station originating the order. Generally, the report of execution closely follows the wording of the order.

(Order) After room, open the outer doors.
(Acknowledgment) After room, open the outer doors.
(Report) Conning tower, the outer doors have been opened aft.
Other common forms in reports of execution involve the phrases "has the word" and "on his way."

(Order) Tell Mr. R. to check the gun access hatch.
(Report) Mr. R. has the word.
(Order) Gunner's mate to the bridge.
(Report) The gunner's mate is on his way.
Certain special forms are given later in this manual.

5. Request for a repeat

If the receiver fails to understand any part of a message, he says "Repeat". The sender then gives the entire message again.

(Message) JP, pick up target bearing wuh wuh nay.
(Reply) Repeat.
(Message) JP, pick up target bearing one one eight.
There is much more, much of which is not (currently) relevant to the game. But if everyone uses the basic concepts, it make for much more orderly communication. It may not be so important when cruising, but when under attack or in the final stages of making an attack, efficient communication can be essential.

To summarize basic "standard" voice message procedure:
  • Basic message format: [person/station who is being addressed], [person/station who is talking]: [Message]
  • Orders are repeated by the addressed station (may be followed by "Aye", to indicate it is an order being received, not given.)
  • The station adressed reports when the order has been completed.
  • "Very well", or "Aye, aye" is used to confirm receipt of reports.

A couple of questions quickly come up on how to translate real world procedures to Wolfpack the game. Firstly, how should each person be addressed? There are five player slots in each submarine, each with the name of a particular role, but in practice these roles can be fluid, with different persons operating the various stations. To meet these challenges, I propose the following:
  • Each person is adressed by the name of their current station. Persons who have multiple roles, or switch roles, use the callsign of the station they are currently operating. For example, the person in the "Radio" slot (or anyone else operating that equipment) uses the callsign "Radio" when communicating about radio messages, and "Sonar" (shorter than "hydrophones") when communicating about use of the hydrophones.

  • A related issue is that there is often confusion about who is in command of the boat. It should always be clear who is in charge of giving orders for the boat's maneuvers. As this might not be the person nominally in the Captain slot, it's useful to be able to always address the person currently in command consistently. This person can be called the "conning officer", or "conn" for short. Ideally, the person in the Captain slot should be the actual captain, and only he should be addressed as captain. However, if he sees fit or needs to (going AFK or leaving the game, for example.) he can "give the conn" to someone else as follows:

    Captain, or current conning officer: [station or name*], take the conn." or "[station or name], you may have the conn."
    The designated conning officer confirms this with "I have the conn.". The Captain can take the conn back by saying, "This is the captain. I have the conn."

    *Not sure what is best to use here.


The callsigns should be short and easy to say. With the above in mind, I propose the following callsigns:

  • Captain: "Conn" (unless the conn has been transferred to someone else, in case he should be adressed as "Captain".)
  • Navigator: "Navigation"
  • Helmsman: "Helm"
  • Radioman: "Radio"/"Sonar" (or "Hydro(phones)")
  • Dive officer: "Dive"


A few examples:

Ordering a course change:

Captain/conning officer: "Helm, conn. Make course 380 (three eight zero)."

Helmsman: "Conn, helm. Make course 380, aye".

...

Helmsman: "Conn, helm. Course is 380." or "Conn, helm. Steady course."

Captain/conning officer: "(Helm, conn.) Very well.", or "Aye, aye".


Ordering a depth change:

Captain/conning officer: "Dive, conn. Make depth 50 [fifty, or five zero] meters."

Dive officer: "Conn, dive. Make depth 50 meters, aye." or "Make depth 50 meters, dive aye."

...

Dive officer: "Conn, dive. Depth is 50 meters and holding."

Captain/conning officer: "Very well."


Passing the conn:

Captain: "Helm, take the conn."

Helm: "This is helm, I have the conn."

(From now, the helmsman uses the callsign "Conn.")

(The Conn could now order someone else to take up the Helm position, who would then use that callsign, and so on.)

Last edited by jarlemag; 04-21-2019 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:22 PM   #34
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In fluid role situations, shouldn't taking the conn be addressed to and taken by the actual nickname of the person? Otherwise it seems to get confusing.

Also, what is wrong with "hydro" as shorthand for the hydrophone station? And it is a just as distinguishable from others. "Sonar" seems wrong for a sub that cannot actually send out ranging pulses of sound.
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Old 04-21-2019, 01:39 PM   #35
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Agreed on the first point. Passing the conn/switching roles is one situation where using (nick)names may make most sense.

Re: Hydro/sonar, a few reasons:
  • The sub doesn't currently have active sonar, but some german submarines did have active sonar installed, and so this naming is "future proof" if that's introduced.
  • "Sonar" is a single word, while "hydro" is just part of a longer word, and "hydrophones" is rather long.
  • Last but not least, "rule of cool". "Sonar" just sounds cooler.
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Old 04-21-2019, 02:11 PM   #36
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Yeah, no! The coolness factor does not apply to games that try to be authentic and realistic. Sonar is an abbreviation. And active sonar was not used on German boats until later in the war. And infrequent at that.

Let's just call it as it was meant to be.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:40 PM   #37
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Edited again - based on the fact that plotting targets on the surface requires a man on the TDC to read off bearing from the UZO, I've got Nav in the tower now. For his plot he has all the info he needs and the commander is feeding him the required info/bearings from the bridge, as IRL. This solves the issue of personnel not getting down to the vents in time too - Nav slides down on the dive order and is on aft vents right away, with Dive Officer manning forward.

Soon to follow in coming posts - 4-player and 3-player SOPs (to follow shortly).

I agree with you guys on a standardized verbiage also, that we can refine!
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:50 PM   #38
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Aye, aye.

Continuing on that track, here are some "standard helm commands": http://www.boatswainsmate.net/BM/helmcmds.pdf

Last edited by jarlemag; 04-23-2019 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:47 PM   #39
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If we are doing this Friday, I can be there
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Old 05-12-2019, 02:15 PM   #40
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I like this better, just divide the grid

|1|2|3|
|4|5|6|
|7|8|9|

That's close enough for wolfpack coordination.
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Old 06-02-2019, 08:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onkel Neal View Post
I like this better, just divide the grid

|1|2|3|
|4|5|6|
|7|8|9|

That's close enough for wolfpack coordination.
In order to give everyone an easy reference I suggest using the Keypad. It is very similar to what you posted above with one important difference, the numbering starts at the bottom left of the square.

Use the keyboard 10-Key keypad as the reference for numbering the grid.

I used this system for many years in a WWII flying game and it works well.

We used to report position as follows in text:

POSIT<GRID>KP<#>

In your example, in the OP, the position is AF5149x83x23

Using the Keypad system POSIT/AF5149KP3

The keypad system can be used in a manner that becomes more precise if desired.

The Grid AF5149 is broken into nine squares
|7|8|9|
|4|5|6|
|1|2|3|

The boat is in the 3, actually it is in the top left corner of the three or in the 7 square of the 3 square. Break the three square into the same nine squares and the position report becomes

POSIT/AF5149KP37

Two digit keypad position should be all the precision ever needed.
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:26 AM   #42
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Sorry, but taking the grid reference order provided by the game as a base ( which was historically used) and then reversing the number order when the maps stops displaying it further than 4 levels is just plain silly. Common sense would be to continue the same order just to avoid confusion. Using the keypad ordering has little benefit over the existing order. I would say it is only because of muscle memory for those having a numerical key pad on their keyboards. That may be the majority of players but it is not a rule that everyone has one. Aside from that, those that are more used to telephone keypads follow the KM grid order anyway.

In discord a common counter argument is given that it doesn't matter, as long as it is agreed among players before the game starts. Well, that last part is true. Agreements made on deviations to conventions trumps always. (no politics in there ) But that only works if you know who enters the game session. If you leave the lobby open for players unknown to you and they enter a different boat then you cannot be sure of their level of understanding. Following conventional grid numbering (as was historical and exampled in the game) is then the most simple and right course of action.
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Old 06-02-2019, 11:20 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pisces View Post
Sorry, but taking the grid reference order provided by the game as a base ( which was historically used) and then reversing the number order when the maps stops displaying it further than 4 levels is just plain silly. Common sense would be to continue the same order just to avoid confusion. Using the keypad ordering has little benefit over the existing order. I would say it is only because of muscle memory for those having a numerical key pad on their keyboards. That may be the majority of players but it is not a rule that everyone has one. Aside from that, those that are more used to telephone keypads follow the KM grid order anyway.

In discord a common counter argument is given that it doesn't matter, as long as it is agreed among players before the game starts. Well, that last part is true. Agreements made on deviations to conventions trumps always. (no politics in there ) But that only works if you know who enters the game session. If you leave the lobby open for players unknown to you and they enter a different boat then you cannot be sure of their level of understanding. Following conventional grid numbering (as was historical and exampled in the game) is then the most simple and right course of action.
My suggestion was based upon my previous experience in another WWII map based game that also did not label the grids beyond a certain zoom level. it used the traditional top left corner starting point (telephone keypad style)

And EVERYONE found it much easier to use the 10-key pad visual reference versus the more traditional telephone style numbering because there was an easy visual reference sitting right in front of them at all times.

It was a flying game and the pace was, obviously, much faster than a submarine game so anything that saved a few seconds and a few brain cells was important.

It doesn't matter much to me what the SOP is eventually but I do know people make fewer mistakes when presented with easy to understand visual aids.

Long years of real world crew resource management training and practice taught me that.
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Old 06-02-2019, 05:07 PM   #44
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Good point, if it works, use it.
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Old 06-03-2019, 12:44 AM   #45
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the guys I've been playing with radio us their position by stating " Grid x BL(angle) BR(angle)" of the current grid they're in.
Go to map, draw a line from the bottom left of the grid square at the given angle, do the same for the bottom right. Wherever the lines cross is their position.
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