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Old 01-08-2019, 03:55 PM   #46
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It is indeed, very strange... I ~know~ I've gotten this in other mods and / or Stock, yet I cannot replicate it. I'm attempting to transfer an SH4v1.4 folder to my big computer, since a person cannot install v1.4 after it has been updated to v1.5, though I do have v1.3, v1.4 & v1.5 all residing happily on my old duo-core dual core E-whatever computer with 2gig and a tired, old, ATI AIW 9600XT AGP video card. The frame rate is horrendous anymore, so I'm attempting to get v1.4 onto the newer quad-core, so it'd be comparable to the Stock and FotRSU installs. We'll see how far I get with this idea...

Does anyone watching this happen to know if a v1.4 environmental mod can run OK on v1.5, and vice versa? Or were there other files involved with v1.5? I'm speaking specifically of W_clear & kriller's environmental mods, which is what both TMO & FOTRS (and by virtue of inheritance, FotRSU) use... ?? I haven't a clue when it comes to environmental stuff (or 3D... )

Edit: A thought just occurred to me FrontRunner: what kind of hard drives do you have? Where are you writing your Saves, and with what interface? Any write-caching involved? ie: 7200rpm Sata drives, or an SSD drive?... ?? My one computer is mixed IDE and SATA (old beast). The other is all SATA. I have no SSD drives.
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Last edited by propbeanie; 01-08-2019 at 03:58 PM. Reason: It's just a thought... but I've noticed something strange...
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Old 01-08-2019, 06:58 PM   #47
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Edit: A thought just occurred to me FrontRunner: what kind of hard drives do you have? Where are you writing your Saves, and with what interface? Any write-caching involved? ie: 7200rpm Sata drives, or an SSD drive?... ?? My one computer is mixed IDE and SATA (old beast). The other is all SATA. I have no SSD drives.
I’m thinking the same thing about the hard drives. My C-Drive is RAID 0 SSD, the drive the SH4 and mods are D-Drive 3TB. The Documents Folder/SH4 is on the C-Drive. I believe I have enabled write caching on all of my drives. Should I disable write caching?

I had SH4 installed on the C-Drive when I first noticed this issue. Since it occurs on reload of already loaded games, something may be getting stuck in the cache or perhaps WINDOWS 10 doesn’t like the way I play the piano.

I’m thinking of moving my Documents Folder to the D-Drive.
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Old 01-08-2019, 07:30 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Front Runner View Post
Recent testing reveals that this issue is affecting the BALAO, but not the TAMBOR class. I'm about to test ALL boats to see if there are any other boats which exhibit this issue.
Thanks to Propbeanie for giving me the heads up on his observations!

The main reason that I save games is because I like to play, mostly, at 1x, and not use Time Compression. I like to leave the game running and listen to Fred's Radio stations while I attend to household chores, routines and duties. After running the game for 6 straight hours, I sure want to save the game when I go to bed just in case there is a power outage or my cat jumps on the keyboard while I'm sleeping.

My penchant for 1x play led to starting this thread in the first place when I discovered the high-frame rate Celestial Cycle issue. I'm using 1/2 refresh rate (30fps) to keep my Sunset, Sunrise, Moonset, and Moonrise cycles reasonably close to Almanac times. That's the way I roll. If you play using mostly Time Compression, then the frame rate issue is of no major concern.
Very Nice!!
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Old 01-08-2019, 09:01 PM   #49
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If it was 1994, I could tell you all about cache configuration with an IDE interface and why you would never use write caching, especially if you also had an ATAPI drive... Windows 3.1 is no longer with us, and neither is DOS 4.5 or whatever it was... my 3 1/2 inch game boot disk is no longer working either, and I no longer have to worry about properly configuring my Soundblaster 16 whatever it was... Oh!, and let's not forget about PIO Modes etc...

But I never have trusted write caching. The computer OS decides when it's a good time to write to the drive, and an old game does not know that. However, if something goes wrong with a write like that, then ~all~ the loads would be corrupt. This is a re-load thang. What it reminds me of is similar to when a person runs the Museum, you cannot trust the game to run properly, and vice versa, if you run the game first, you will not be able to run the Museum. Something in SH4 is not "cleared" when swapping "modes", or whatever it is.

But then again, this is not that. We're not swapping "modes" (or whatever it is). All I can figure is that maybe FotRSU just has a lot of data to Save for the game, and when you do that 2nd load, it acts similar to changing modes??... I dunno. If that was the case though, it would happen every time, and it doesn't. I just got finished with FOTRS v2.0 (GE) for SH4 v1.4, and had no issues with the Balao on Jan 2, 1944 several times, so I went no further with it. Tomorrow, I'll do similar with Stock and GFO.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:02 AM   #50
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Moving my Documents Folder from C-Drive to D-Drive didn’t change anything. Starting Silent Hunter from C-Drive or D-Drive didn’t change anything even with Document Folder on same drive as SH4.exe .
Tambor save/quit/start/load/reload works with one set of save game files but not with another when creating them within each folder. I'm using MultiSH4 to create the different SH4 save folders.
Hmmmm......

OK, so I moved the TAMBOR save game files from the Documents/"V80" folder to the Documents/"000" folder. They work in BOTH folder sets! However, the TAMBOR Career test savegames I newly made in the Documents/"000" folder, do NOT work, that is save/quit/start/load/reload. I could even go back and forth using different save games without quitting the game and I was able to continue to get the TAMBOR saves that work in both folders to re-load correctly, a number of times, even after I was unsuccessful in getting the TAMBOR saves that don't work loaded in between. I am either on the verge of a break through or a break-down. Observation, if the "savegame/load/reload" works within one Documents/(Silent Hunter Save Folder) i.e."V80", it also works in another Documents/(Silent Hunter Save Folder) i.e."000".

In other words, even though I was unsuccessful in getting one set of saves to work, the other set worked every time. I did not have to quit to get them to load properly. I could even reproduce the unsuccessful attempts and I was still able to load the set that works without quitting.

Now, I will have to test loading one of the TAMBOR saves that work, making a new "save" and seeing if THAT one, newly minted within the 000 folder works or not......stand by.....
OK, the serial save that I made from the set of TAMBOR saves that work, continue to work. Going from a good TAMBOR save to a bad TAMBOR save results in the bad TAMBOR save coming up correct, the one time, and after that reverting to what to me appears to me to be a "1300 Daylight scene". I can then go back to the good TAMBOR saves and they ALL work correctly no matter which order I re-load them. If I then return to the bad TAMBOR save that came up good, the one time, it now comes up bad. This test was done without quitting the game and re-starting.
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Last edited by Front Runner; 01-09-2019 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:54 AM   #51
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Using two sets of save game files. Set A is the good TAMBOR saves. Set B is the bad TAMBOR saves.
By good, I mean that the files successfully loaded using "quit/start/load/reload" and by bad, I mean that the files did not load properly using "quit/start/load/reload."

Here are my observations. These were done serially, without quit/restart.
1.Load Set A-Midnite-OK
2.Load Set A-Noon-OK
3.Load Set A-Midnite-OK
4.Load Set B-Sunset-OK
5.Load Set B-Midnite-Not OK
6.Load Set A-Midnite-OK
7.Load Set A-Noon-OK
8.Load Set A-Midnite-OK
9.Load Set B-Sunset-Not OK

Whatever happens between #4 and #5 does not affect Set A but does affect Set B as 9.Load Set B-Sunset fails to reload successfully as it did in #4.

The A set stays OK throughout the test. The B set works the one time only and then reverts to what appears to me to be "1300 Daylight scene". Note that this is the also time and daylight scene when the Career starts.

What are the differences between the Set A and the Set B saves?
Is there a way to compare the two sets to see what the difference is?
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:50 PM   #52
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Propbeanie - Where in the Career Save games does it save the Date and Time that you are at when you make the save? I can't seem to find it in the save files.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:16 PM   #53
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I've been looking for that... there is a "SaveData.map" file which holds the waypoints, so next time you lose the waypoints, see if that file is still in your Save folder, and a valid text document - "X:\Users\ UserName\ Documents\ SH4SaveFolder\ data\ cfg\ SaveGames\ xxxxxxxx\ SaveData.map", where "X" = drive letter and "x" = numbers in folder name.

I have not found a date and / or time holder yet, but I have not searched very deeply in the binary files. I don't understand why a Load Save would not bring in all of the files. Maybe the "SaveData.map" is just a "back-up" of the true data that's in a binary file instead... ?? I sure do wish aanker would get well and re-join us. He knows a lot about the save folders.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:46 PM   #54
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I sure do wish aanker would get well and re-join us. He knows a lot about the save folders.
Latest testing results. I created a new "pristine game" folder using CMS for testing FOTRSUv80 with a Documents Folder dedicated to this test. I've reset all of my hard drives and SSD to disable write caching. I also have the Documents Folder on the same drive as the game test. I made 5 save games for each individual boat. The first save game was made 2.25 hours from the starting time, 1300. The 5 saves were made at these Base times; 1515, Sunset, 0015, Sunrise, and 1215. After each test I saved all the games to separate folders and Classified them either Set A if they worked or Set B if they did not. I also deleted them from the Documents folder. Each new test was made with a clean save game folder. By "worked", I mean that they successfully passed the "quit/start/load/reload/" test. By "BAD" I mean that they passed the "quit/start/load" test, but NOT the "quit/start/load/reload" test.

1. Asiatic Fleet S-18 January 1942 - All saves worked. Classified Set A.
2. Pearl Harbor Porpoise January 1942 - All saves worked. Classified Set A.
3. Pearl Harbor Tench January 1945 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B-1.
4. Pearl Harbor Tambor January 1942 - All saves worked. Classified Set A.
5. Pearl Harbor Narwhal January 1945 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B.
.......testing continues.
[EDIT] What if it's not the boat but one of the options associated with the boat. Both failures were in 1945. All good saves were in 1942.
6. Pearl Harbor Narwhal January 1942 - All saves worked. Classified Set A. This is significant as it indicates that it may not be the "boat" but one or more of the options attached to the "boat."
7. Pearl Harbor Balao June 1943 - All saves worked. Classified Set A. I may be on to something here. Torpedos mix of 14s & 23, Twin 20mm fore & aft, 4" 50 Bow, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA
8. Pearl Harbor Tench January 1945 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B-2. Torps mix of 14s & 23, Twin 40mm fore & aft, 5" 25 Bow, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA. Maybe it's the twin 40s, or the 5" 25 Bow which I could not change out.
9. Pearl Harbor Balao January 1944 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B. Torps mix of 14s & 23, Single 40mm fore & Aft, 5" 25 Stern, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA.

The difference between the (#7) 1943 Balao using the 4" 50 and Twin 20mm, and, which worked vs this 1944 Balao (#9) which uses the 5" 25 gun, but single 40mm fore and aft. The Tench (#3 and #8) use the 5" 25 Bow gun and Twin 40mm fore and aft. The 1945 Narwhal (#5) use the bow and stern 4" 50 gun and twin 40mm fore and aft. The 1942 Narwhal (#6) uses the bow and stern 4" 50 and a single 50 cal machine gun. FOTRSUv80 took away our ability to upgrade/downgrade certain items so I cannot check what would happen if I were able to downgrade the 1944 Balao to the 4" 50 and Twin 20mm fore and aft.

Well, I've gone as far as I can go today. I feel like I'm getting closer to an answer. There is more testing yet to be done.........

[EDIT] Well, if it isn't the "boat" and it isn't the weaponry, torpedoes and sensors etc attached with the "boat" then maybe it's the date. My latest testing reveals that the issue starts with Campaigns beginning in January 1944. A Career with the same boat begun in Mid-1943 (June) does not have the issue.

10. Pearl Harbor Gato January 1944 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B. Torps mix of 14s and 23. Single 40mm fore & aft, 5" 25 gun stern, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA.
11. Pearl Harbor Gato June 1943 - All saves worked. Classified Set A. Torps mix of 14s and 23. Twin 20mm fore & aft, 4" 50 gun, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA.
12. Pearl Harbor Gar January 1944 - All saves BAD. Classified Set B. Torps mix of 14s &23. Single 40mm fore & aft, 5"25 gun stern, SJ-I, ISD, JP, WCA.
13. Pearl Harbor Gar June 1943 - All saves worked. Classified Set A. Torps mix 14s & 23. Twin 20mm fore & aft, 4"50 gun, SJ-I, ISD, WCA.
By "worked", I mean that they successfully passed the "quit/start/load/reload/" test. By "BAD" I mean that they passed the "quit/start/load" test, but NOT the "quit/start/load/reload" test.

I have all of the save game files, saved and sorted to individual folders if anyone would like to dive in.

Now to start looking at the FOTRSU Campaign generation files beginning in January 1944.

For good measure, and for comparison, I started a Campaign in TMO/RSRD/OTC/ISP, Tench, Feb 1945 and all saves worked.
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:59 PM   #55
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I've been looking for that... there is a "SaveData.map" file which holds the waypoints, so next time you lose the waypoints, see if that file is still in your Save folder, and a valid text document - "X:\Users\ UserName\ Documents\ SH4SaveFolder\ data\ cfg\ SaveGames\ xxxxxxxx\ SaveData.map", where "X" = drive letter and "x" = numbers in folder name.

I found the SaveData.map files in both the Set A and Set B files. They are all valid text documents as far as I can tell. I opened them with "Notepad".
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Old 01-09-2019, 08:12 PM   #56
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Well, I'm having more fun than any poor man should be allowed to have with vehicle issues, so my day has been spent with a broken car - again, and it will eat up a goodly portion of tomorrow.

In the meantime, the Tench and Narwhal are not Stock boats, of course. The Tench is based on the Balao, which comes into the game near 1943, and has caused us issues in that regard, being given to the player too early. Another thing to keep in mind is the different conning towers that are available for the boats, and those influence which AA configurations can be used. FotRSU took away the players' choice of where to place their deck gun, because of the Stock game issue of losing the gun and / or the gun crew.

thank you for all of your detailed testing FrontRunner!
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:58 AM   #57
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In the meantime, the Tench and Narwhal are not Stock boats, of course. The Tench is based on the Balao, which comes into the game near 1943, and has caused us issues in that regard, being given to the player too early. Another thing to keep in mind is the different conning towers that are available for the boats, and those influence which AA configurations can be used. FotRSU took away the players' choice of where to place their deck gun, because of the Stock game issue of losing the gun and / or the gun crew.

thank you for all of your detailed testing FrontRunner!
FOTRSU also took away the players choice as to what AA weaponry may be assigned and where. I understand the reasoning behind the Deck Gun, but not the AA. Maybe they are inseparable.

Sorry to hear about your vehicle problems. I've had my share this past few months.

You mentioned "computering" way back in the early 90s. That's about when I got started with "IBM PC compatible". I had a network of computers, all using different versions of DOS, and then different versions of Windows, to keep our radio station up and running.

Before that I had the VIC 20 and Commodore 64. I remember chasing bugs in "Darklands" and "Daggerfall". Both of them were great games but full of bugs.

Please read my [EDIT] to my testing post above. I'm thinking, start looking at the Campaign Generation files related to and beginning in January 1944.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...0&postcount=54
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Old 01-10-2019, 12:03 PM   #58
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I've been reading on some of the real navigation mods, and the issue they had with celestial bodies and the game's use of "local time". What I've experienced before with that is a loaded Save will sometimes take on the local "local time", in place of the 'Home time'. ie: Sunrise near Pearl might be 6:15a, but near Honshu, it's more like 11:15a. You play the game in your first sitting, traveling from Pearl to Midway to Honshu, and night is night, day is day for Pearl time, but might not be for Honshu time. You save the game, exit & come back the next day, and day is day now in Honshu, and you notice that you're on Honshu time, not Pearl time. Not always, but sometimes. Then, you've found that TC can influence how accurately the clock runs, with the game apparently not "locking" the 'earth' cylinder of the game with the 'sky' sphere of the game, apparently relying on 29.97 (30) fps to keep things synced. Seemingly related issues.

I have seen the loss of waypoints before on the navmap also, and got the game to do that the other day. Now I cannot replicate that. I've been shooting all over the firing range though, and have not been consistent with my "testing" targets. You seeing a possible link to the passage of time, as it relates to equipment availability, or something in the campaign is interesting. During the early phases of FotRSU development, we kept running into massive "convoys" of DD, groups of 18-30 in various places of the Pacific. We came to discover that they were improperly set Random Generated Groups (RGG) that were coninually spawning and joining their brethren as they mathematically looped the 'world', until the player got close enough to them, and they spawned into life. The game would stutter, drop frames terribly, worse than when near a large harbor area, and sometimes CTD. The further the calendar advanced, the worse it got. Resource hog. You made a point earlier about the 5" .25 cal., or maybe the AA, 'course, it could be a conning tower...

I'm going to concentrate all my testing near January 1, 1944, based upon what you've found, adding and subtracting one month at a time from a CareerStart, and see if I can get closer to a date when the time and equipment changes things. The 43a files load about 19430901, while the 44a files load about 19440601. Maybe the first "test target" would be a September 1, 1943 start... I'll add another "test" start to FotRSU, and PM you a link for that...
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Old 01-10-2019, 03:03 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
I've been reading on some of the real navigation mods, and the issue they had with celestial bodies and the game's use of "local time". What I've experienced before with that is a loaded Save will sometimes take on the local "local time", in place of the 'Home time'. ie: Sunrise near Pearl might be 6:15a, but near Honshu, it's more like 11:15a. You play the game in your first sitting, traveling from Pearl to Midway to Honshu, and night is night, day is day for Pearl time, but might not be for Honshu time. You save the game, exit & come back the next day, and day is day now in Honshu, and you notice that you're on Honshu time, not Pearl time. Not always, but sometimes. Then, you've found that TC can influence how accurately the clock runs, with the game apparently not "locking" the 'earth' cylinder of the game with the 'sky' sphere of the game, apparently relying on 29.97 (30) fps to keep things synced. Seemingly related issues.
To be clear, If you are playing mostly in Time Compression, the game stays in sync much better than if you are playing at 1x with high frame rates. 30fps is recommended to keep the game in sync while in 1x. If you are playing in Time Compression, high frame rates affect the sync only while you are in 1x, such as making attacks or defending. Although the error can accumulate while you are playing at 1x, it seems to be insignificant overall when you are playing Time Compression.
I just completed a transit from Pearl to Midway to Honshu and kept track of my sunsets, sunrises, and some moon-rises and moon-sets. I used 512x time compression for the transit and some short 1x play sequences. I recorded incredibly accurate times for all the sunset, surnrise, moonset, moonrise. The SH4 team did a remarkable job making this work so well in Time Compression.

I have discovered that even when you are based out of Pearl, you are using Midway Base time, 11 hours west of GMT (UTC). I just arrived off the coast of Bungo Suido on an Insertion Mission. The Celestial Sphere has tracked perfectly all along the way.
I am playing FOTRSUv80 in a Balao out of Pearl, January 1944 and the quit/start/load/reload does NOT work. I have to quit/start/load to come back into the game. Sometimes when there is a load glitch, such as the Radio is already playing and I can't turn it off, I have to do a lot of quit/restart/load-ing to finally get one of the saves to load properly. It's a PITA, but it works and anyway I'm having fun! (Aren't I?)
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:57 AM   #60
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Recent discovery fellers... I was crashing with a mini-mod I had made for Front Runner with a few different Start dates to try and narrow-down the time frame involved in the "undesired change", and I started crashing when trying to load Saves when using the Balao - everytime. I have changed the "UnitTypeCommonality=" of the Balao, and lo and behold, no more crashes when trying to re-load. However, I now lose my GamePlay Settings, and my WayPoints when loading the Save...
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