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Old 06-25-2012, 10:32 AM   #1
19Herr_Rapp86
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Default Modern German Submarines

I've done some research on Germany's modern subs. They hydrogen powered ones. Dolphin, Gal, Types 209, 207, etc. I've researched a lot of world war II history. It's an important part of all the worlds history, not just America's you know. I know that we have a lot of heroes from the WWII era, and I couldn't help but wonder if Germany has their heroes from the great war. I mean, not all Germans were ardent Nazi murderers. Most of the research I have come up with are the U-Boat crews as the heroes. I think it would be a great honor to those sailors, whom over 75% of them are on eternal patrol, if Germany started coming up with sub classes in their honor. The Prien Class, Hardegen Class, Schultze Class, etc. That would be a neat tribute to those German heroes.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:06 PM   #2
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Most German subs are designed with export in mind so it helps that they have a numerical name so a potential buyer can simply add their own class name at purchase.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:10 PM   #3
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Yeah. I noticed that in my research. Germany recently exported some Dolphins to Isreal. As well as several other classes to other nations.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
The Prien Class, Hardegen Class, Schultze Class, etc. That would be a neat tribute to those German heroes.
I think this will never happen, because the relationship of current Germans to military is a bit difficult.

Many Germans don't like the military at all, and they are certainly not proud of it. They would be even less proud of WW2 war heroes -- esp. since these were the guys who fought for Hitler, even if not "real" Nazis.

I (as a German myself) tend to agree with this sceptical view, because even today we have Nazis, and there could be the danger that today's Nazis get stronger if military traditions from the past would revive.

On the other hand, I somehow like the fact that Germans still build submarines which are good enough to be exported to other countries.

Germans have a problem with themselves.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:45 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Newinger View Post
I think this will never happen, because the relationship of current Germans to military is a bit difficult.

Many Germans don't like the military at all, and they are certainly not proud of it. They would be even less proud of WW2 war heroes -- esp. since these were the guys who fought for Hitler, even if not "real" Nazis.

I (as a German myself) tend to agree with this sceptical view, because even today we have Nazis, and there could be the danger that today's Nazis get stronger if military traditions from the past would revive.

On the other hand, I somehow like the fact that Germans still build submarines which are good enough to be exported to other countries.

Germans have a problem with themselves.
@Newinger
That makes me wonder if the German teachers from Gymnasium or one of the Hochschule put their own spin on the WWII era. Do they reinforce the skeptical view you described?
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:24 AM   #6
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You also have to be really careful, because while many famous commanders were not Nazis, some definitely were, including Prien, Lüth and Schepke.
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Old 08-16-2012, 10:43 AM   #7
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Perhaps, they should name them after all the men they drowned on the merchant ships they shot out from underneath the sailors that sailed them.

Yes, I like that one ... SS Williams, SS Franks, SS McCarthy, SS Bailey, SS Wilson, SS Edwards, etc
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Old 08-18-2012, 04:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by 19Herr_Rapp86 View Post
I've done some research on Germany's modern subs. They hydrogen powered ones. Dolphin, Gal, Types 209, 207, etc. I've researched a lot of world war II history. It's an important part of all the worlds history, not just America's you know. I know that we have a lot of heroes from the WWII era, and I couldn't help but wonder if Germany has their heroes from the great war. I mean, not all Germans were ardent Nazi murderers. Most of the research I have come up with are the U-Boat crews as the heroes. I think it would be a great honor to those sailors, whom over 75% of them are on eternal patrol, if Germany started coming up with sub classes in their honor. The Prien Class, Hardegen Class, Schultze Class, etc. That would be a neat tribute to those German heroes.
With due respect but you're missing the point completely.
Despite of all personal bravery by U-Boot men and Captains, there is still the fact that we were on the wrong side of the table.
It's also not about beeing a Nazi or not, it's about the fact of being part of a system which brought Terror and Devastation all over Europe.
Your error is just to see the personal bravery which surely was above the call of duty, nevertheless you should also see the reason why the U-Boots sunk Allied Merchant ships.
The second World War was a war for racial supremacy and a war started by a System which was one of the most horrific in Human History and like it or not the Kriegsmarine was part of that System.
It was not like here is the heroic Kriegsmarine and over there are the evil Nazis, the Kriegsmarine was also part of this system like every other Service Branch of the then German Armed Forces.
Whilst the U-Bootwaffe was not involved in the Holocaust, Land based Units were involved in the Holocaust specially at Ports in the Baltics and the Balkans.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:02 PM   #9
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This is a touchy subject. Can get idilogical and ugly very quickly. I am German and grew up in South Africa. Went to primary school where most of the children were either English or English decent.
What I got to hear there. A total Bias for the allies and a rather anti-German view point.
In high school about 40% of the people there were Jews. I got my slack there as well. Not so good when in history class you what the movie "Holocast" and you see your class mates look at you. Brrr...
Then I moved to Germany and I realized what a difficult theme it is over here. I find it a shame that the expierences of the people from a military point of view is not really mentioned. No need of heroes but the recognition of the German soldiers is ignored. In my oppinion. A lot of small villages here have a stone comemoration the fallen soldiers of WW1. I have not seen one village have a stone for the fallen WW2 soldiers.
Thre are a lot of documentary movies shown here about WW2, but they are usually the same.
Hitler killing the Jews.
Which was the greatest crime, it is not allowed to ever happen again nowhere. Do not get me wrong.
British movies about the war are in my oppionion more fair to all sides. I find they show the suffering more universal.
If they named a submarine after a WW2 commander it would be a major political event starting the discussion all over again.
Ooops we don't want that.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:13 PM   #10
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Anyway here is a link to modern German U-boote.
The first is in German the second in English.

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Old 01-10-2013, 12:45 AM   #11
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Post #9

And I thought that being an gay-supporting Anglican going to a Catholic school was difficult.
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Old 01-16-2013, 08:21 AM   #12
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With due respect but you're missing the point completely.
Despite of all personal bravery by U-Boot men and Captains, there is still the fact that we were on the wrong side of the table.
It's also not about beeing a Nazi or not, it's about the fact of being part of a system which brought Terror and Devastation all over Europe.
Your error is just to see the personal bravery which surely was above the call of duty, nevertheless you should also see the reason why the U-Boots sunk Allied Merchant ships.
The second World War was a war for racial supremacy and a war started by a System which was one of the most horrific in Human History and like it or not the Kriegsmarine was part of that System.
It was not like here is the heroic Kriegsmarine and over there are the evil Nazis, the Kriegsmarine was also part of this system like every other Service Branch of the then German Armed Forces.
Whilst the U-Bootwaffe was not involved in the Holocaust, Land based Units were involved in the Holocaust specially at Ports in the Baltics and the Balkans.
you are making it way too easy for yourself there. by that definition, everyone who lived in greater germany at that time, or serving in a branch of the armed forces, was "part of the system" and, therefore, evil?

that, clearly, was not the case. aside from the heavily indoctrinated parts of the nazi regime, like SS and secret police, the majority of german soldiers, sailors and airmen were just that - soldiers, sailors and airmen, serving under a goverment which rose to power under circumstances that were questionable at best.

at the time, believe it or not, the nazis seemed like a good idea for most people. deriding the populace and soldiers for what we know today is nothing more than hindsight bias. if "being part of the system" were so bad and evil (i still don't follow that logic...), then every branch of the armed forces would have been declared a "criminal organisation" during the nuremberg trials. they weren't. only those who were truly evil and deserve contempt, now and always, were.

what i am trying to say is this: stop politicizing everything. character traits that define a good soldier or sailor are completely independent from the political system that they served in. they deserve recognition. and yet almost everyone who served on the german side during the nazi reign gets demonized instantly.

example: we do it with the spartans or the romans. both are revered for their strong militaries and cited as examples of advancements in tactics or exemplary bravery and such. but neither were democrats or treated POWs particularly well.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:15 PM   #13
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As a German, I do not want that current subs are named after 'WWII-heroes'...what a hero is, is everybody's own definition. Heroes for me are the German civilian and military persons, who tried to get rid of that regime...

Heroes for me are additional all military personal, which died during duty in the cold war area to protect the freedom and peace together with the NATO-Allies. In the end this led to a united Germany.

Germans have also no problems with military in general...they are just more pacifistic like most other NATO countries, which is quite natural due to the history...this is currently changing. Even left-wing parties have agreed mostly to engagements like in Afghanistan or the 'rescue' of Kosovo in 1999.

The German military forces did get some quite good marks in a recent survey, conducted by a well known institute. http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bw...25y4_WMwF4Q!!/
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:06 AM   #14
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As far as I am concerned if you grow up in Germany you grow up with a guilt which is forced on one.
In part I can understand this.
It goes too far.
At first Rommel was seen as a good soldier. Then they bring programms on TV trying to discredit him. At first the Wehrmacht was seen as clean, then the truth has to be shown what atrocities they performed.
Of course this is awful, terrible and should never happen again. But it is still happening.
In war terrible things happen no matter who is involved in the war.
I think it was in a book by Liddell Hart (I am not sure anymore) who wrote (if it is true don't ask me) that the French people were in part treated worse by Canadian liberaters and some other Allies than by the Germans.
It makes me sad to see how ashamed many Germans are of themselves.
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Old 01-17-2013, 08:20 AM   #15
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I find it interesting to see that this discussion has been mostly between Germans. Please allow and American with both British and German heritage to butt in. Germany is not alone in committing atrocities, on both the personal and the national level. It's easy to point fingers, even at yourself. Sometimes it's deserved and sometimes it's not. Even when it is deserved the best you can do is learn from it and move on. Yes, the Nazi regime was evil. Yes, wholesale atrocities were committed. Yes, atrocities were committed at lower levels, and not just by the Germans.

On the other hand I think that Germany sometimes goes too far in trying to forget. The example of this that I experienced is the refusal to allow the swastika to appear anywhere, even on model airplane and ship kits. I think that's going a bit too far. But I don't live in Germany, so I don't know what the climate is like there.

My advice is this: Never forget what happened, because, as English philosopher Edmund Burke said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it". But don't let it run your lives either. Not every German was a bad guy; not even a lot of party members. Don't forget that Hitler came to power by promising to right the wrongs done by the British and French at the end of the Great War and make Germany great again. As far as most Germans could tell he did exactly that, so people were willing to follow him, and even revere him. Most Germans, including those in the military, didn't know about the atrocities. All they knew was that their country was at war and they needed to do their duty.

People are people. We are influenced by what we see and hear, and a charismatic leader can convince people he is trying to help when actually he is leading down the path to evil. A lot of the time he'll even believe it himself. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions". Or, as a friend of mine once said, "Adolph Hitler wasn't the villain of World War Two, he was the hero. Just ask him."

The real bottom line is that it could happen again, and it could happen in Germany, in France, in Britain, or in America. We need to learn from history. We need to watch ourselves, and we need to watch each other. Yes, a great evil happened seventy years ago. It happened because some evil people got into power in a major nation, and because they were able to fool the majority. The majority can blame themselves, but it is wrong for others to blame them, including their children.

I like Das Boot. I like Silent Hunter. I play naval and airwar games, and I play all sides. I'll even take the Vietnamese side in '60s airwar, even though I fought in that war. I like the machines, and I admire the men who manned them. That's my bottom line.

Now, what was this about modern German subs?
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