Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yeah, from the front and assuming they have time to react.


But everyone has equal vulnerability from attacks from the rear.


If we could only convince criminals to not only attack from the front but to announce their intentions, we might have something

And if involved in an incident where there is an active shooter bent on causing as much carnage as possible, being armed gives the innocent bystander the opportunity to either escape or engage the active shooter with the idea of mitigating the damage and loss of life the active shooter is intent on causing.

No one wants to be involved in anything like that and no system of defense is fool proof. These are the chances you take out in the public in these days and times, Platapus. If you have a better idea, we would love to hear it.

For me and many others though, I would rather take my chances with my concealed weapon and go down swinging. This is why anyone who carries should know their carry weapon and it's strengths and limitations and be proficient in it's use. This includes tactics as well.

[Rockstar]

https://thoughtcatalog.com/jeremy-lo...tidepressants/

Every time there’s a mass shooting in America it understandably starts up another “national conversation” about gun rights because, by definition, there would be no mass shootings without guns.
But since mass shootings are perpetrated by an extremely tiny minority of gun owners, many of whom don’t even own their guns legally, perhaps it’s naïve to think that gun ownership is itself the sole or even primary cause of mass shootings. Countries such as Norway, France, and Switzerland—all of which have stricter gun laws and lower per-capita gun ownership than the United States—have far higher per-capita rates of mass shootings.
When searching for other reasons for mass shootings, people blame things such as one-parent households, video games, loss of religious faith, or simply the vague sense that the nation is falling apart.
Although only 8.6% of American males are on antidepressants at any given time, they seem much better represented as a percentage of mass shooters. Here are 39 mass shooters who were either on antidepressants at the time of their rampage, had abruptly quit taking their medication when they went on their spree, or had been prescribed antidepressants at some point in the past. None of this is to imply that antidepressants make certain people go on mass shootings—just as few people with guns go on shooting sprees, so do few people on antidepressants. But it is an area that is definitely worth researching.

[MaDef]

Somebody is looking for federal grant money.

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

...we might have something

So what's your point Platapus? Since no means of defense is 100% effective why bother even trying?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yeah, from the front and assuming they have time to react.


But everyone has equal vulnerability from attacks from the rear.


If we could only convince criminals to not only attack from the front but to announce their intentions, we might have something

True but I sure feel better on a daily basis knowing I have a chance to make it a fair fight.

[Commander Wallace]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yeah, from the front and assuming they have time to react.

But everyone has equal vulnerability from attacks from the rear.

If we could only convince criminals to not only attack from the front but to announce their intentions, we might have something

Maybe this might help to put things in perspective, Platapus.

Quote: October 27, 2018, at the Tree of Life – Or L'Simcha Congregation in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The congregation, along with New Light Congregation and Congregation Dor Hadash, which also worshipped in the building, was attacked during Shabbat morning services. The shooter killed eleven people and wounded six. It was the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in the United States.

Robert Gregory Bowers, 46 years old, was arrested at the scene and charged as the suspect with 63 federal crimes, some of which are capital crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsb...gogue_shooting

Although this took place at a Jewish house of worship, it has nothing to do with this topic. At 9:50 a.m. EDT (13:50 UTC), a gunman described as a "bearded heavy-set white male" entered the building, opened fire and was "shooting for about 20 minutes".

The reason I mention this incident is because it took this moronic, cowardly individual ( Robert Bowers ) 20 minutes to select and kill his victims. You had mentioned, Platapus, that coming up from the rear, anyone can be vulnerable and you are quite correct. However, With the first shot taken by Bowers, the element of surprise was lost.

Bowers apparently had no fear of return fire as he systematically and methodically moved about the building and found, shot and killed his victims.

I wondered when I heard about this incident what might have been if any of the victims or others had been armed and returned fire. It's conjecture on my part or anyone else to think it might have made a difference. On the other hand, cowards like Bowers tend to retreat in the face of force. Bowers might have been killed or incapacitated to where he could do no more harm or perhaps ran off before he could claim as many victims as he did. In all, Bowers killed 11 people and wounded 7.

I personally think one or more armed worshipers would have made a difference. At the very least, it may have given those potential victims the time and opportunity to escape and also given law enforcement time to arrive on the scene. The Pittsburgh Police and SWAT teams did arrive and Bowers wounded 4 police officers as well before Bowers himself was shot and wounded. There have been others shootings like this at public places as well.

I remember reading another news story where 3 armed intruders engaged in a home invasion.The homeowner was hurt but his son used an assault rifle and quickly killed the 3 intruders. It was quickly said, " Another happy ending brought to you, courtesy of the 2nd Amendment."

The people I know that go armed don't like to think about situations like the one I just detailed. However, the same people that use a weapon as part of a comprehensive strategy to protect themselves and their families have already thought these and other scenarios through.

[Rockstar]

I dont know about being equally vulnerable from the rear. Situational awareness can give one an edge too.

[Onkel Neal]

BREAKING NEWS: Seventy-Two Killed Resisting Gun Confiscation In Massachusetts.

National Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned weapons were ambushed by elements of a Para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimate that 72 were killed and more than 200 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement.

Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices. The governor, who described the group’s organizers as “criminals,” issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government’s efforts to secure law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed weapons.

Gage issued a ban on military-style weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in early this month between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms.

One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that “none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned over their weapons voluntarily.” Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government’s plans.

During a tense standoff in the Lexington town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces over matched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops.

Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as “ringleaders” of the extremist faction, remain at large.

---------------------

Hmmm... with the new administration, thought this would getting topical soon.

[Onkel Neal]

Some thread we were discussing the risks of using a firearm to stop a mass shooter in a public space like a club, where if you pulled your CC, another CC owner could not know your intentions and there could be confusion and the wrong people hurt, etc.
Cannot find that thread

Hero who stopped Colorado gunman shot dead by police in case of mistaken identity

Unfortunately, seems like this happened yesterday in Denver. The guy did the trick, but for some reason he was not very careful about being mistaken for a shooter himself. That, and the cop should have issued at least one warning, bad move on his part.

Johnny Hurley, 40, was shopping in downtown Arvada, a Denver suburb, when he heard Ronald Troyke ambush and murder Officer Gordon Beesley, who was responding to a call Monday afternoon, officials said.

Troyke, 59, then returned to his truck to grab an AR-15, and was holding it when Hurley — who was carrying a concealed weapon — confronted him and shot him dead, Police Chief Link Strate said in a video clip posted Friday.

But when another officer responded to the scene, he saw Hurley holding the suspect’s rifle — and tragically mistook the good Samaritan for the cop killer, fatally shooting him, Strate said.

[Jimbuna]

^ Tragic

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

^ Tragic

It won't be the last as CC or open carry is getting so popular and I'm sick of getting ads for CC holsters and apocolypse ration packs. I do feel that for some it's sensible under the circumstances they find themselves in, but I know people who do it just because they can or have succumbed to all the media fear mongering people are exposed to these days. Hell, I even thought about it after The Patriot Act was enacted and the government started acting more overtly invasive.

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Some thread we were discussing the risks of using a firearm to stop a mass shooter in a public space like a club, where if you pulled your CC, another CC owner could not know your intentions and there could be confusion and the wrong people hurt, etc.
Cannot find that thread

Hero who stopped Colorado gunman shot dead by police in case of mistaken identity

Unfortunately, seems like this happened yesterday in Denver. The guy did the trick, but for some reason he was not very careful about being mistaken for a shooter himself. That, and the cop should have issued at least one warning, bad move on his part.

Until we know more, it's tough to armchair quarterback this.

Could be Hurley or the officer or both panicked. In many cases, unfortunately, not all police officers are that well-trained for these types of situations. In others, some people who are cops shouldn't be. Or it could be that Hurley ignored or didn't understand instructions from a panicked out of breath officer.

Sucks all around.

[vienna]

I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the cop who shot Hurley; you're a cop responding to a call of an active shooter, come on the scene, and you see a civilian down on the ground, as well as a fellow officer down, and a guy is standing there with an assault rifle over the bodies; so, let's do the math: officer down call, active shooter reported with assault rifle, you come on the scene, see two down and a guy with the AR-15 in his hands standing over the bodies; with the knowledge of an active shooter situation, one who has already killed a cop, and maybe the guy on the ground, making him a highly unpredictable perp, with the possibility he may open fire not just on you, but, also, civilians in the area, you move to neutralize the perceived threat, as you have been trained to do in active shooter situations...

The whole situation is tragic, but consider: if Hurley, after shooting the killer, had just kicked away the AR-15 from the proximity of the dead killer's body and holstered his own sidearm, the responding officer would have seen a very different scene when he rolled up, and a far lees tragic result would have occurred...

I also feel for the officer who shot Hurley because, given what he knows now about the situation, the fact he shot and killed an innocent man, and a hero, to boot, is something that will haunt him probably for the rest of his life...



<O>

[Rockstar]

Its little bit more than mistaken identity or procedure. Good officers are briefed daily on the threats they'll face while on or off duty. Its what they think about, A LOT

These days politicians denounce lawenforcement as stortroopers and the main stream media happily regurgitate it to the masses who will react violently to it. Its almost as if police officers are being set up to fail to give politicians something to talk about (when it suits them).

[August]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Some thread we were discussing the risks of using a firearm to stop a mass shooter in a public space like a club, where if you pulled your CC, another CC owner could not know your intentions and there could be confusion and the wrong people hurt, etc.
Cannot find that thread

Hero who stopped Colorado gunman shot dead by police in case of mistaken identity

Unfortunately, seems like this happened yesterday in Denver. The guy did the trick, but for some reason he was not very careful about being mistaken for a shooter himself. That, and the cop should have issued at least one warning, bad move on his part.

Well maybe it's nitpicking but its not quite the same thing. It was not another cc holder but rather a policeman who arrived after the shooting had stopped.

Another thing to consider is guy was holding a rifle. Not something that a CC holder would carry indoors. Maybe the cop would have hesitated if the guy was holding his own pistol, or more likely had re-holstered it already, as he apparently did in order to pick up the rifle.

My last thought might seem a bit callous but the truth is even with that terrible friendly fire death a lot more lives were saved by him being there with his firearm that day.