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Old 10-04-2018, 08:35 AM   #1
MANoWAR.U52
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Default FOTRSU Aircraft Spam intended?

Started a campaign in a rusty Asian Fleet S-18 and getting constantly spammed by those ASW planes every 5 mins even close to friendly bases (no radar or other active equipment running, also staying away from the plane "highways"). For me it is very tedious and immersion breaking to dive 1000x on the way to the patrol area from scripted planes firing all the time that of course magically home directly onto your sub. It goes so far that I would call it nearly unplayable.

Did I something wrong when setting up or is this really intended?
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Old 10-04-2018, 12:38 PM   #2
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v0.71 has "extra" planes, that have been toned down in this next release. However, none of the Japanese planes are scripted. They originate from bases, from aircraft carriers and from BB, CA & CL vessels that have scout planes. Their "attacks" or "patrols" are all based upon the AI intel they "receive" from the first plane that spots you. If you happen to ID one of those planes (careful though, they can end your career early), let us know if it happens to be a Jake or similar float plane (BB, CA, CL). If it's a Zero or Kate, it probably came from a carrier. If you are starting at Manila, you will be blanketed by planes early, especially from Lingayen Gulf on North - remember, there's an invasion going on. Same way when you get down around Java, or later, the Solomon's. Either way though, there are too many in v0.71.

The trick with planes - even if you are between two task forces with multiple CV off the coast of Japan and within range of 3 air bases - the trick is not to be seen. See if you have SD radar on your boat. If you do (you can't "see" a console for it on the boat), turn it on with a <T> key press and use it to be forewarned of a plane's approach. Dive before they see you. Once a plane sees your sub, they tell all their little AI buddies, and then you've got all sorts of UltraAI-piloted planes dogging your every move, even if we do turn the planes down... Be sure and look at the "SH4_Q-Ref_Card_Front.jpg" and "SH4_Q-Ref_Card_Back.jpg" files in the 'root' of the Game directory for keyboard shortcuts.
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Old 10-04-2018, 03:34 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
v0.71 has "extra" planes, that have been toned down in this next release. However, none of the Japanese planes are scripted. They originate from bases, from aircraft carriers and from BB, CA & CL vessels that have scout planes. Their "attacks" or "patrols" are all based upon the AI intel they "receive" from the first plane that spots you. If you happen to ID one of those planes (careful though, they can end your career early), let us know if it happens to be a Jake or similar float plane (BB, CA, CL). If it's a Zero or Kate, it probably came from a carrier. If you are starting at Manila, you will be blanketed by planes early, especially from Lingayen Gulf on North - remember, there's an invasion going on. Same way when you get down around Java, or later, the Solomon's. Either way though, there are too many in v0.71.

The trick with planes - even if you are between two task forces with multiple CV off the coast of Japan and within range of 3 air bases - the trick is not to be seen. See if you have SD radar on your boat. If you do (you can't "see" a console for it on the boat), turn it on with a <T> key press and use it to be forewarned of a plane's approach. Dive before they see you. Once a plane sees your sub, they tell all their little AI buddies, and then you've got all sorts of UltraAI-piloted planes dogging your every move, even if we do turn the planes down... Be sure and look at the "SH4_Q-Ref_Card_Front.jpg" and "SH4_Q-Ref_Card_Back.jpg" files in the 'root' of the Game directory for keyboard shortcuts.
Yes I´ve started my campaign from Manila and basically all planes were float planes. Even when being submerged with up-scope there was a floating plane passing by nearby every 10-20 minutes. Daytime surface running is almost impossible, but perhaps this is even realistic. From what I´ve read about S-18 ops in early war, they basically run submerged the complete day and only at night run on the surface.

But it is probably true that getting spotted by them triggered more and more like you said and then chances "stacked" so high that the skies were infested with them. Will in the future watch more out to not getting spotted.

I was always unsure about the SD radar because in most wargame simulations I´ve learned to use radar devices with highest caution because of the high risk of counter detection, thus I am used to drive subs under full EMCON whenever possible and occasionaly use short surface sweeps for ship detection. I absolutely have no clue what ingame effects are accounted for and how good the enemy´s radar receiver technology is when it comes to intercepting your active radar emissions. But I will definitely try utilize the SD Radar more often.
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Old 10-04-2018, 04:01 PM   #4
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Old 10-04-2018, 06:40 PM   #5
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For playability, and to keep the game's sub skipper 'honest', the IJN in FotRSU has more / better electronic gear than they did in real life, so they can indeed track you down with counter-measures. However, you 'see' them on radar before they see you, and you're able to 'hide'. Check-out Rockin Robbins Airplane Avoidance with Radar Tutorial video for one technique. For FotRSU, I use a bigger circle, due to the planes being more aggressive, and the bigger circle gives me a few more seconds to track them, and a few more seconds to get deeper. As in TMO, the planes can supposedly see your sub down to about 120 feet depending on circumstances. All that said, you might not have SD on that Sugar Boat, which complicates things a bit. If when you press the "T" key you see a text prompt in the crew's dialog box of "Turning on SD radar...", then you do have it. To turn it off, use the same "T" key, and you'll see a "Turning off SD" or similar. The NavMap displays the contacts it finds...
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Old 10-05-2018, 12:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
For playability, and to keep the game's sub skipper 'honest', the IJN in FotRSU has more / better electronic gear than they did in real life, so they can indeed track you down with counter-measures. However, you 'see' them on radar before they see you, and you're able to 'hide'. Check-out Rockin Robbins Airplane Avoidance with Radar Tutorial video for one technique. For FotRSU, I use a bigger circle, due to the planes being more aggressive, and the bigger circle gives me a few more seconds to track them, and a few more seconds to get deeper. As in TMO, the planes can supposedly see your sub down to about 120 feet depending on circumstances. All that said, you might not have SD on that Sugar Boat, which complicates things a bit. If when you press the "T" key you see a text prompt in the crew's dialog box of "Turning on SD radar...", then you do have it. To turn it off, use the same "T" key, and you'll see a "Turning off SD" or similar. The NavMap displays the contacts it finds...
Alright will do, thanks for the info


Edit: using the SD Radar right now it allows me to dive before any harm can be done but it also directly "homes" every enemy plane exactly to my position. Still better than being surprised and bombarded I guess. Also will probably modify the airstrike.cfg.

Last edited by MANoWAR.U52; 10-05-2018 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:13 AM   #7
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I was always unsure about the SD radar because in most wargame simulations I´ve learned to use radar devices with highest caution because of the high risk of counter detection, ...
I do not think the Japanese have any EMS capabilities in FortsU (at least not before the end of 1944).
This problem existed in the original Mod Forts of MadMax, where various destroyers as well as capital ships could detect you in the fog or at night due to the radar.
Surely, CapnScurvy has long since eliminated or adjusted this annoying issue.


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Old 10-05-2018, 07:55 AM   #8
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I'm not sure how much of the original FotRS sensors have been dealt with by CapnScurvy, but the stock game itself will spawn planes on the player and have them seemingly come right at you, radar or not. Same with the DD. You could be 5nm away from them, already on Silent Running below the thermal layer, and it's almost like you've kept your periscope up with shears awash while on Ahead Flank, where the DD will change course and drive right to your location, drop a half-dozen cans, then move on for a while, then all of a sudden come right back on top of you, and drop 100 depth charges on you... clairvoyant even - finding a 'balance' with the sensors is the target, but also in relation to other aspects, such as "CrewRating" settings in the Campaign. Planes are somewhat "special", in the regard that the irritating part of their configuration is that they do NOT fly very well unless set to Veteran at a minimum, and preferably Elite. However, they then become a horde of "Superman" pilots, capable of dropping a 500 lb bomb down your conn hatch while flying nap of the earth, 15 foot off the wave peaks, coming out of the morning sun... Luke Skywalker skills even...
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Old 10-14-2021, 09:42 AM   #9
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Thread necro, sorry but how is it even possible that they are also active *at night*?
I'm sailing from Pearl to my patrol station off Honshu, and about halfway between Midway and Japan I'm encountering this aircraft spam. Day AND night. I don't think the Japanese had any night flying capability in Feb 1942!
Realism is one thing but this is seriously affecting my enjoyment of the game. Using FOTRSU 1.46, no other mods.

Last edited by Zero Niner; 10-14-2021 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 10-14-2021, 12:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
3-4. The value of aircraft radar in anti-submarine work, both for search and blind attack, was also well recognized.Here again, their equipment was decidedly inferior and pilots generally were either poorly trained or lacked confidence in its use and are reported to have

--8--
had but little success in radar bombing attacks. Airborne radar was first used in medium bombers as early as September 1943, but there was no large-scale employment of radar-equipped planes for anti-submarine work until the fall of 1944. Their equipment was reported to have been capable of detecting a surfaced submarine at a range of twelve miles. However, Japanese doctrine called for use of airborne radar only during night or low visibility conditions because visual search was still considered more reliable. Towards the end of the war, Japanese radar-equipped planes were making numerous contacts with our submarines, but few attacks resulted. In 1945, a few anti-submarine aircraft were also provided with radar detection receivers, but the Japanese professed to have never reached the stage of homing on U.S. submarine radar. However, war patrol reports indicate that at least some enemy pilots achieved moderate success in using such equipment for initially detecting the presence of our submarines. Precise locating was probably then accomplished with aircraft search radar rather than radar detection equipment.
3-5. By late in 1943, the Japanese had successfully developed a magnetic airborne detector (MAD) and, commencing in March 1944, this equipment was put into operational use by both the Army and Navy for anti-submarine patrol.3 Range of detection was reported to have been about 120 meters under average conditions and about 250 meters was claimed under ideal conditions. Since expert pilots flew magnetic search planes only thirty to forty feet above the surface, the apparatus was therefore presumably capable of detecting a submarine at well over 300 feet submergence. Aircraft equipped with MAD were employed principally to search ahead of convoys or to exploit a submarine contact made by other means. Although it was planned to use such aircraft to sweep all heavily travelled convoy routes, lack of both aircraft and MAD equipment prevented this. The instrument was considered sufficiently reliable to warrant calling in surface craft whenever an initial contact had been established. The types of planes normally used for anti-submarine work, and equipped with MAD and/or radar when possible, were NELL, JAKE, KATE, JILL, DAVE, BETTY, ZEKE and EMILY.4 By the end of the war, only about one-third of the shore based anti-submarine planes had MAD, about one-third had radar, and only a very few were equipped with both. Anti-submarine planes were very seldom fitted with guns, which accounts for the low incidence of strafing attacks against U.S. submarines.

3-6. Only one small land-based "hunter-killer" air-surface group existed, and even this was not organized until early 1945.5 The group covered the East China Sea between Formosa and Shanghai and was comprised of five surface ships (DE types) known as the 102nd Surface Squadron and about 20 Navy fighters (ZEKES) of the 934th Squadron,
It can be MADdening experience for sure! https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN...8/WDR58-3.html
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Old 10-15-2021, 10:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Zero Niner View Post
Thread necro, sorry but how is it even possible that they are also active *at night*?
I'm sailing from Pearl to my patrol station off Honshu, and about halfway between Midway and Japan I'm encountering this aircraft spam. Day AND night. I don't think the Japanese had any night flying capability in Feb 1942!
Realism is one thing but this is seriously affecting my enjoyment of the game. Using FOTRSU 1.46, no other mods.
The Japanese did indeed fly "at night", though not the way they do in v1.46 of the mod. The issue there is the radar is entirely too good, and assigned too early for "real life". The Preview version of the mod does rectify that problem. However, it was not entirely out of the realm of possibility for airplanes to fly in the late evening and early morning hours, or moonlit nights, using ambient lighting to see surface vessels and attack rather accurately. Read on some of the actions around the Solomons in 42 & 43.
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