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Old 07-31-05, 10:05 AM   #1
SeaQueen
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Default Re: Sources for good missions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ula Jolly
I was just thinking:
...
Perhaps anyone around here are sitting on a link to some website where realistic, hypothetical battle scenarios, based on qualified assumptions*, are contributed to the internet?

*Let us say that in 1995, someone at the Pentagon worked out a scenario for naval warfare against China, if US forces were stationed there and there and other factors. I, and some other people as well, are looking for such scenarios. Realistic battlefiction on a grand scale. Tom Clancy-like.
I found another "realistic" source describing a hypothetical naval conflict where the U.S. intervenes between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus and other islands. It's in Wayne Hughes' Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat
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Old 08-01-05, 03:40 AM   #2
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My opinion, is that you have 2 very different kind of game :

solo mission
where the story and the realism have a great importance to ensure immersion of the player in a mission or a campagne.

MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here.

Quite different objectives for these 2 kind of scenarios.
I try to make my MP mission playable also in solo, and this is not always really easy (scripting each plateform).
Finally, I don't take the realism (I mean geopolitical realism) in consideration when making a MP mission, just because its limit a LOT the possibilities to make a good and exiting MP mission

But I actually work on a KILO campaign, and this campaign won't be playable in MP (because of mission duration).
This campaign will be as close as possible from the actual geostrategic worldmap.
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Old 08-02-05, 02:04 AM   #3
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Good summary - I would like to see this post under the 'Working examples' thread,
which is an excellent starting point for we 'Learners'.

Good enough I think for a 'Sticky' ?

Done!
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Old 08-08-05, 12:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here.
I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

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Old 08-08-05, 12:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sources for good missions

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaQueen
I found another "realistic" source describing a hypothetical naval conflict where the U.S. intervenes between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus and other islands. It's in Wayne Hughes' Fleet Tactics and Coastal Combat
I have that book... both editions. Fantastic read!

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Old 08-09-05, 12:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyg00
Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
MP mission
where the more important thing is
1) the balance of side
2) replayability
3) good choice of objectives
4) and mission duration.
Realism is not a priority here.
I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

TG
So Timmy, you will be VERY VERY restricted in the choice of your theatres.
I can say, as usual MP player, I never had people saying, during the mission, they don't like it because it's "geopolitically" unrealistic.
The goal is to make it interesting and to give a nice fight, well balanced, with action and the much work possible (nothing worth than to wait 1h30 before something happen ...)
If you look at my missions, you will see no one of them is more than 2 hours of games, usually, they are about 1H before one of the sides gets its objectives.
But during these 1H or 45mn, there is always 15 to 30 mn of positionning / data collection before engagment.

If you always try to have geopolitical realism, mission have DEEP chance to be bad balanced, just because if you do this, one side will be MUCH more strong than the other (US to name it)

I prefer interesting game instead to kill the interest in the name of 'realism'.
Because 'realistic' mission is way too long and way to unbalanced in real life ...

And that's why I said I concentrate on realism ONLY on solo mission, form reasons mentionned above.

Replayability is a probably one of the main factor to consider => dynamic group (to have something different each time) coupled to dynamic locations can make a mission replayable lots of time with different conditions.
It's very important for me as I often play my maps with friends.
And I still don't have lots of map made ...

talking about this, I'd like very much to have random wheater and sea states on editor ...

TimmyG00, I don't know how much often you play on MP match, but as regular player, I can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ...
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Old 08-09-05, 04:50 PM   #7
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I agree that Single Player missions are more conducive to realism, in that the player can spend much more time on them. However, if you create the mission properly, you can simulate realistic engagements on a shorter (MP) time scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
So Timmy, you will be VERY VERY restricted in the choice of your theatres.
That's wrong. I can put my missions anywhere in the world with great success.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
I can say, as usual MP player, I never had people saying, during the mission, they don't like it because it's "geopolitically" unrealistic.
Well good for you, I'm sure you're very proud of yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
If you always try to have geopolitical realism, mission have DEEP chance to be bad balanced, just because if you do this, one side will be MUCH more strong than the other (US to name it)
Then it is the duty of the MP mission designer to balance realism with gameplay, and use his or her creativity if necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
Replayability is a probably one of the main factor to consider => dynamic group (to have something different each time) coupled to dynamic locations can make a mission replayable lots of time with different conditions.
I'm well aware of that. I have a lot of experience with such things from Sub Command as well as DW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
TimmyG00, I don't know how much often you play on MP match, but as regular player, I can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ...
I'm not sure what you mean by "the name of the boats"... that sentence made no sense to me, unless you are advocating the use of, for example, the FFG to simulate an equivalent ship in a Russian CVBG... This is part of what I meant when I mentioned "creativity" above. Mission designers should have a sense of creativity in order to overcome the occasional lack of playable platforms in the game (meaning DESIRED playables, like no Russian surface forces) and also to overcome the relatively short durations of Multiplayer matches.

The bottom line is that you CAN have a respectable degree of realism in a multiplayer match. You simply must have the right stuff

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Old 08-09-05, 05:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sources for good missions

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyg00
I have that book... both editions. Fantastic read!

TG
I want to read the first edition. What was the biggest difference?
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Old 08-09-05, 05:51 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmyg00
I disagree strongly with that assessment. Realism may suffer somewhat due to time constraints (it's hard to get people to sit in on a single MP session for more than a couple of hours), but it is still an important consideration for me when I create my MP missions.

TG
What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby!

The study would be my CIC... I'd have to rename the dining room the "wardroom"...

I agree with you, though. Much of what makes a scenario compelling is that it's a big "what if" based on historical, projected, or current circumstances. Multiplayer or not, something about it has to capture me. Otherwise... I might as well be playing Doom.


I think there's two kinds of people that play DW, though. At least, from what I've seen. One is has some kind of real-life experience with naval issues, and wants to use it as a way to play through things they think about. The other kind probably hasn't had any real life experience, and is looking for a pickup game with their friends, and captures what they read in Tom Clancy novels or whatever.

I'm not sure both camps can ever really be totally satisfied.
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Old 08-09-05, 08:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaQueen
I want to read the first edition. What was the biggest difference?
The first edition was called "Fleet Tactics - Theory and Practice" and did not focus on the littorals and approaches like the second edition did. It contained somewhat less about missile tactics than does the second edition, and the fictional battle at the end of the book was between the Russians and Americans in the Eastern Mediterranean, but closer to the Middle East (south of Turkey).

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaQueen
What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby!

The study would be my CIC... I'd have to rename the dining room the "wardroom"...
*drools*

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaQueen
I think there's two kinds of people that play DW, though. At least, from what I've seen. One is has some kind of real-life experience with naval issues, and wants to use it as a way to play through things they think about. The other kind probably hasn't had any real life experience, and is looking for a pickup game with their friends, and captures what they read in Tom Clancy novels or whatever.

I'm not sure both camps can ever really be totally satisfied.
That sounds about right.

TG
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Old 08-09-05, 10:08 PM   #11
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I have to say I agree with both OKO and Timmyg00. :hmm: Oh yes.

Discussion here seems to frequently take a 'mine is better than yours ' direction quite unnecessarily.

It is possible both to enjoy playing realistic scenarios and those where realism is not a priority.
I thought that it was only horses that wore blinkers.

An example - Take shooting - Possible to walk the fields or take the clays and yes jump a 4 x 4 and 'torch' at night.
Varying degrees of reality all enjoyable.

I agree with OKO's ' important things ' but would have inserted the words ' the only ' before priority.

I am struggling to learn scenario design currently and hope to borrow from features implemented
by both protaganists and the excellent surprise and adrenalin boosting features of the Fish scenarios.

What this thread has demonstrated is that I will have to attach labels to my scenario descriptions
( Health Warnings) egs. :-
' A realistic encounter.'
' A neo-realistic scenario with surprise elements.'
' A fun paint-ball action scenario'

We mus'nt forget that our 'serious' sims future will depend largely on attracting and involving
a broader spectrum of 'gamers.' Embrace this or risk a loss widely experienced in the flight sim. market.

Fun and realism are not mutualy exclusive.
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Old 08-09-05, 11:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bellman
Discussion here seems to frequently take a 'mine is better than yours ' direction quite unnecessarily.
Your interpretation, perhaps, but I don't see it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bellman
It is possible both to enjoy playing realistic scenarios and those where realism is not a priority.
Who said it wasn't?

All I see is a legitimate discussion on whether realism can be a part of short duration ( ~2 hour) multiplayer scenarios. OKO thinks it cannot, and I disagree. Pretty simple. Nobody said anything about any one type of mission being more fun than another; enjoyment is completely subject to personal taste.

Don't bring a bucket of water when there's no fire :P

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Old 08-10-05, 01:03 AM   #13
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I see no bucket.
I see no fire.

Just good humour for those who can appreciate it .

OKO '' ...... can tell you the more important is the quality of the engagment, and not the name of the boats ...''

Seaqueen '' What DW really needs is a 72hr MP mega-scenario for ASW. Feel the burn baby! ''


:hmm:
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Old 08-10-05, 12:16 PM   #14
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OK, whatever. Let's just get back on topic and dispense with the irrelevancies.

TG
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Old 08-10-05, 01:41 PM   #15
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Yep

Would it help players if designers did effectively 'label' the type of challenge posed to the player ?
'Realistic' mission task operation descriptions are focused and one is not anticipating the out of character
appearance of units not normaly found in operational waters. The 'unrealistic' fantasy scenarios
have a more unstrutured range of options.

I was serious about labelling/health warnings which would take the form of for example - in the description -
'' A fun 2 v 2 MP sub combat scenario around seamounts with some 'foreign AI surprises'' :hmm:
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