TMO + RSRD enemy evasion - my first impression as returning SH 4 player

[grenadier98]

Hi there. After a very long break I started to play SH4 again. I've used TMO before, but this is the first time with TMO + RSRD for me. I play at almost 100% difficulty, just like in the past and started in 1941 based at Manila. I ony use the free camera for cinematic reasons to watch the ships sinking.
RSRD seems much harder than I remember my last games with only TMO before my break. My first attempt was not really succesful, because almost everytime when I fired my torpedos, the enemy ships started evasive actions and I'm pretty sure, that they were not aware of me before I fired. I know that the US-torpedos have a steam/gas propulsion and that there is a chance that enemies can see their trail, but it shouldn't be everytime and not so fast and probably not in the darkest night and these were all merchant vessels. It seemed really strange.

Because it went horribly wrong, I started again. This time I was more lucky with my patrol. I sank a Takao heavy cruiser with three torpedos during a night attack. Then I found another enemy task force and managed to position myself so well that I was able to torpedo a Kongo BB. I think my torpedo attack was almost perfect but it must have seen my torpedos and accelerated quickly avoiding three out of the four. I can live with that. It's a war ship, it can run fast, it has better acceleration than merchants and it was during daylight. After this I found a convoy with 12 merchants escorted by 6(!) war ships. Escorts and real DDs. So one escort for every two merchants. I have never before run in such a heavy escort. In my first attempt I attacked two Nagara Maru, each with two torpedos. All of the hit, all exploded, but one ship survived. I escaped ran ahead of the convoy and attacked hours later again. The escorts found me and I had to abandon the attack. Same as before, but this time the escorts were posiotend in a better way - at least for me and I managed to sink two Nagara Marus, each with to torpedos. I left the area an went for my second mission objective and after a searching for some time in the area a Japanese sub came in my direction which I sunk. Then I was ordered back to base.

I sank 5 ships for a total tonnage of 39105 tons, including the biggest CA in the Imperial Navy, received 1690 renown and was awarded just a lousy Commendation Medal. The TMO manual rates this as an excellent result, so I was expecting much more... What the hell do they expect me to do for a Bronce Star Silver Star, Navy Cross?
So in RSRD the enmies seem to much more capable of defensive actions, they often appear as they have a six sense of being attacked and recognicing torpedos and the have much much more escorts and no small convois or single ships. The US navy seems really stingy with rewards. On the other hand I didn't have a single dud, at least ot those 12 torpedos that hit ther target. Four missed - three on the BB and one on the sub.
I'm interested in the opinion of mor experinced players - what do you think? And I hope my english is not to bad for you native speakers

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by grenadier98

Hi there. After a very long break I started to play SH4 again. I've used TMO before, but this is the first time with TMO + RSRD for me. I play at almost 100% difficulty, just like in the past and started in 1941 based at Manila. I ony use the free camera for cinematic reasons to watch the ships sinking.
RSRD seems much harder than I remember my last games with only TMO before my break. My first attempt was not really succesful, because almost everytime when I fired my torpedos, the enemy ships started evasive actions and I'm pretty sure, that they were not aware of me before I fired. I know that the US-torpedos have a steam/gas propulsion and that there is a chance that enemies can see their trail, but it shouldn't be everytime and not so fast and probably not in the darkest night and these were all merchant vessels. It seemed really strange.

Because it went horribly wrong, I started again. This time I was more lucky with my patrol. I sank a Takao heavy cruiser with three torpedos during a night attack. Then I found another enemy task force and managed to position myself so well that I was able to torpedo a Kongo BB. I think my torpedo attack was almost perfect but it must have seen my torpedos and accelerated quickly avoiding three out of the four. I can live with that. It's a war ship, it can run fast, it has better acceleration than merchants and it was during daylight. After this I found a convoy with 12 merchants escorted by 6(!) war ships. Escorts and real DDs. So one escort for every two merchants. I have never before run in such a heavy escort. In my first attempt I attacked two Nagara Maru, each with two torpedos. All of the hit, all exploded, but one ship survived. I escaped ran ahead of the convoy and attacked hours later again. The escorts found me and I had to abandon the attack. Same as before, but this time the escorts were posiotend in a better way - at least for me and I managed to sink two Nagara Marus, each with to torpedos. I left the area an went for my second mission objective and after a searching for some time in the area a Japanese sub came in my direction which I sunk. Then I was ordered back to base.

I sank 5 ships for a total tonnage of 39105 tons, including the biggest CA in the Imperial Navy, received 1690 renown and was awarded just a lousy Commendation Medal. The TMO manual rates this as an excellent result, so I was expecting much more... What the hell do they expect me to do for a Bronce Star Silver Star, Navy Cross?
So in RSRD the enmies seem to much more capable of defensive actions, they often appear as they have a six sense of being attacked and recognicing torpedos and the have much much more escorts and no small convois or single ships. The US navy seems really stingy with rewards. On the other hand I didn't have a single dud, at least ot those 12 torpedos that hit ther target. Four missed - three on the BB and one on the sub.
I'm interested in the opinion of mor experinced players - what do you think? And I hope my english is not to bad for you native speakers

welcome back, grenadier.
you type English better than most English-speaking members.

accumulating renown can be tough, especially with the harder-than-normal mods such as the ones you are playing.
a technique that MAY bring you more success in that area is to accumulate Successful Objectives.
if you encounter a convoy, radio in and hopefully get a Secondary Objective. Sink only enough ships to be successful and then evade.
if you can get yourself five or six successful objectives you may be awarded better awards.

don't expect your luck with torpedoes to continue.
good luck!

[Armistead]

I played TMO/RSRD for years and it has it's pros and cons, just get to the point you learn everywhere to be and it's gonna show since it's historical traffic. The fast escalating ships has always been a thing in about every mod, tho a few mods have had some level of success with it. The thing I always did is fire a spread by the wire, shoot right at the bow, the MOT and stern. With ships escalating abilities I basically want to fix it, it sees the one coming at the bow it usually slows to let it pass and the others will hit. Main thing is a good aimed spread, not using the spread dial.

[iambecomelife]

"I sank 5 ships for a total tonnage of 39105 tons, including the biggest CA in the Imperial Navy, received 1690 renown and was awarded just a lousy Commendation Medal. The TMO manual rates this as an excellent result, so I was expecting much more... What the hell do they expect me to do for a Bronce Star Silver Star, Navy Cross? "

As for the rewards, unfortunately SH4 medals system was badly designed. I had one career where I kept getting awarded the Silver Star over and over again. On a thread some years ago, people discovered that the devs probably mixed up the identity of the medals, with low-ranking medals getting awarded for good patrols and vice versa. It has never been completely fixed, but I will look for a mod someone made to PARTLY correct this problem, and send you the link. Congratulations on your patrol success.

[propbeanie]

CapnScurvy had a fix, which I think he released separately for Stock, but it is in his OTC (Optical Targeting Correction) mod, as well as FotRSU. However, there is no real way to fix the problem. All you can do is re-arrange the order of the medals, put some lipstick on the pig, and hope for the best...

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by grenadier98

Hi there. After a very long break I started to play SH4 again. I've used TMO before, but this is the first time with TMO + RSRD for me. I play at almost 100% difficulty, just like in the past and started in 1941 based at Manila. I ony use the free camera for cinematic reasons to watch the ships sinking.
RSRD seems much harder than I remember my last games with only TMO before my break. My first attempt was not really successful, because almost every time when I fired my torpedoes, the enemy ships started evasive actions and I'm pretty sure, that they were not aware of me before I fired. I know that the US-torpedoes have a steam/gas propulsion and that there is a chance that enemies can see their trail, but it shouldn't be every time and not so fast and probably not in the darkest night and these were all merchant vessels. It seemed really strange.

Because it went horribly wrong, I started again. This time I was more lucky with my patrol. I sank a Takao heavy cruiser with three torpedos during a night attack. Then I found another enemy task force and managed to position myself so well that I was able to torpedo a Kongo BB. I think my torpedo attack was almost perfect but it must have seen my torpedos and accelerated quickly avoiding three out of the four. I can live with that. It's a war ship, it can run fast, it has better acceleration than merchants and it was during daylight. After this I found a convoy with 12 merchants escorted by 6(!) war ships. Escorts and real DDs. So one escort for every two merchants. I have never before run in such a heavy escort. In my first attempt I attacked two Nagara Maru, each with two torpedos. All of the hit, all exploded, but one ship survived. I escaped ran ahead of the convoy and attacked hours later again. The escorts found me and I had to abandon the attack. Same as before, but this time the escorts were posiotend in a better way - at least for me and I managed to sink two Nagara Marus, each with to torpedos. I left the area an went for my second mission objective and after a searching for some time in the area a Japanese sub came in my direction which I sunk. Then I was ordered back to base.

I sank 5 ships for a total tonnage of 39105 tons, including the biggest CA in the Imperial Navy, received 1690 renown and was awarded just a lousy Commendation Medal. The TMO manual rates this as an excellent result, so I was expecting much more... What the hell do they expect me to do for a Bronce Star Silver Star, Navy Cross?
So in RSRD the enmies seem to much more capable of defensive actions, they often appear as they have a six sense of being attacked and recognicing torpedos and the have much much more escorts and no small convois or single ships. The US navy seems really stingy with rewards. On the other hand I didn't have a single dud, at least ot those 12 torpedos that hit ther target. Four missed - three on the BB and one on the sub.
I'm interested in the opinion of mor experinced players - what do you think? And I hope my english is not to bad for you native speakers

Ability to avoid your torpedoes is based on several factors. One is the light, moonlight or sunlight, fog, weather, ocean state etc. Obviously daylight makes it easier to spot the wake than moonlight, but on a full moon I have noticed enemy ships can spot them just before impact, as opposed to a dark night when first indication of inbound torpedoes they have is when things start exploding. This brings us to enemy skill level The skill levels are poor, novice, competent, veteran, and elite. In TMO, nearly every merchant and escort are set to veteran by default so their vision is pretty good. RSRD changes this and it varies more between competent and veteran.

How far away were you shooting the fish? In daylight, generally need to be 1500 yards or less, ideally 1,000 or less using torpedoes with visible wakes, as in real life. Again, it comes to skill level of that unit. Daylight can fire on a merchant set to competent from 2,000 yards likely will hit it, fire on a veteran merchant from 2000 yards in daylight, 50/50 chance, depending on the spread.

Warships have inherently better visual sensors, are usually set to higher skill level and thus avoid torpedoes better in most cases. Again, many variables with weather.

American skippers(most) moved to the tactic of firing each torpedo as an individual shot, vs a "salvo" (US version of a salvo, setting bearing on middle of target, using spread knob and fired 3-4 torpedoes for most mid and large merchants. 3 torpedoes....raise scope, place cross hairs on middle of ship, send bearing and fire, then place one toward bow, usually the forward mast, fire two, place toward stern, fire three) This covers the target and generally will get a hit, even if they spot the torpedoes. Again, there are many variables.


Far as the convoy with escorts. In RSRD each convoy is set up based on a real convoy that existed. They spawn once at historical time and date and when reach destination, they go away. Always thought this was pretty cool part of that mod. Being in 1941, that was highly unusual and not a regular convoy you encountered, was likely part of the pacific wide japanese invasion forces spreading out.

Later in war, say from mid 1944- end of war will see many more of those as it reflects reality, where there were more escorts than merchants.

I have modified my traffic in TMO (plan to release soon) for Oct 1943- end of war. While still randomly generated, the composition of convoys reflects reality, with large 10-16 ship convoys with 5-10 escorts being fairly common in the mid 1944-early 45. Then goes to 1-3 ships typically with 4+ escorts, which was common then. In testing, I was able to replicate Tang's June 1944 attack off Koshiki straits(shallow water). They had a 6 ship, 12 escort convoy in coastal waters. They moved inside the screen and attacked at night on surface. This is pretty intense. I will admit, have to set the escorts and merchants visuals to novice to allow player chance to perform attack this way BUT they are by no means pushovers. Also, some are set to veteran to compensate and make sure if they attack a submerged target, have a skilled escort or two. Ran through this action 3 times. I managed to get inside the screen all three times, but it is challenging. I was only able to get out without being detected after torpedoes hit once. The second and third time I was fired, spotlighted, and chased out, a couple rounds came very close. There is a lot of risk to this type of attack .

Bottom line, its all about your firing range, skill level and light/weather conditions.

[grenadier98]

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

As for the rewards, unfortunately SH4 medals system was badly designed. I had one career where I kept getting awarded the Silver Star over and over again. On a thread some years ago, people discovered that the devs probably mixed up the identity of the medals, with low-ranking medals getting awarded for good patrols and vice versa. It has never been completely fixed, but I will look for a mod someone made to PARTLY correct this problem, and send you the link. Congratulations on your patrol success.

Thanks you, it would definatly try this change. Medals, promotions and so on add some nice flavor to a campaign.


@Bubblehead1980


My shots where somewhere between 700 and 1000 yards distance from the Japanse ships and more or less at rectangular angle.