Question about Destroyer Command ship behaviors

BradR · 09-06-14, 11:13 AM

Hi! I was wondering if some of you master modders could graciously help me with a problem I'm having with one of my Destroyer Command mods. Here's the problem. I created a very ambitious mod that is based on the Battle of Jutland. I basically created the entire Imperial German High Seas Fleet. Everything from the Battleships König and Grosser Kurfürst to the Destroyers H202 and S223. Everything has worked perfectly EXCEPT the ships aren't behaving as I've programmed them too. As far as I know, I programmed them to stay in formation and travel in a loop to two coordinates. An example taken from my actual program goes like this:

[SCENARIO]
Date = 19391013
Time = 1300
Type = TYPE A
Duration = 7200 //number of hours; 5 days
TimeOut = 0
Origin = 6.500000,56.500000
Weather = OVERCAST
Major = 10
Minor = 5
InitialZoom = 5
TitleEnglish = The Second Battle of Jutland, 1939
TitleGerman =
TitleFrench =
Preprocess = TRUE
DrawOvlyText = TRUE

[GROUP2]
Type = SHIPSQUADRON
UnitType = BATTLESHIP
Side = 2
Name = I Battle Squadron
Nationality = German
Order1.1 = ROE,Capital,Unlimited,Destroy,Cruising,Full,-1,-1
Order2.1 = Formation,FORM_AS_ARE,500,8,-1,-1
Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,21,-1,-1
Order4.1 = WayPt2,6.485000,57.500000,-1,-1
Order5.1 = WayPt2,6.485000,55.500000,-1,-1
Order6.1 = LoopPatrol,1,99,-1,-1
WayptDisplay = DO_NOT_SHOW

[UNIT4]
Group = 2
TypeAbrev = BB
Class = NBBTirpitz
Name = Sachsen
Location = 6.495000,55.915000
Orientation = 0
BoilersHot = TRUE
Fuel = 0.99
Captain = 100
Crew = 100
MultiSelect = TRUE
IconName = NSHIP
Display = DO_NOT_SHOW

Unfortunately the ships do not stay in formation or travel to the coordinates I programmed. Instead they go off in all different directions and for the most part, in a rightmost direction from the direction I would like them to go. If I could get the ships to travel on the course I set, the map would be perfect to me! I have a hypothesis as to why they don't behave the way I want them to. I think it may be because I have too many ships on the field. There are 147 ships in total on the German side. Have I overloaded the game engine with too many ships and that is why they do not behave as well as I would like? If anyone can confirm or disprove this hypothesis and let me know how to get the ships to behave as I want them too? It would be much appreciated. Thank you very much to the community for taking the time to read this post and provide any feedback.

Sincerely,
BradR.

Hinrich Schwab · 09-06-14, 07:58 PM

The DC/SH2 engine, even after patches and PM installed, is funny about maintaining formations. With that many ships, the engine is not overloaded, but it sounds like that the ships are stepping all over each other and over-correcting to avoid collisions. What is the interval between ships? If they are too close, they will go nuts.

Could you share some more details as to how the ships are acting and how consistent the chaos is.

BradR · 09-06-14, 11:26 PM

The ships bunch into a main group with a few outlying ships going in varied directions. It looks something like this

^ /
I x
I
xx x ---->
xxxxx outlyer
xx
big jumbled, squirming bunch

<--- x x ----->

They are originally in a formation that looks like this:

x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x destroyers
x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x

x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x cruisers
x x x x x x x x
x x x x x x x x

etc.

The chaos is consistent with every ship on the field. They are either in the squirming bunch that slowly makes it's way in relatively the desired direction or an individual outlayer that keeps going in a random direction until it hits land, as I tried to get my crude diagram to show.

The spacing between each ship, both forward and to the side, is increments of .005. By what I mean is, if the first ship is at coordinates:

6.485000,55.915000

then the ship to the immediate right is at coordinates:

6.490000,55.915000

and the ship right below them is at coordinates:

6.485000,55.910000

Make sense? Could it be that I have them spaced too closely? Should I use increments of .010 or more? By the way, thank you so much for the help.

BradR · 09-06-14, 11:28 PM

diagram didn't work when the post was sent but the idea is there's a big, swarming bunch going one relative direction and then a few individual ships going in random directions.

tmccarthy · 09-07-14, 03:24 AM

Have you tried the Ctrl+D function to find exact Long/Lat positions?

In the sim pressing Ctrl+D once give you an overlay with info such as frames per second. Pressing Ctrl+D again gives you "Position": the exact longitude and latitude of your ship to the smallest increment like for example 06.485359,55.915672.

I've not had success placing ships using my own coordinates, nor been able to understand the logic of adding increments to space units accurately. Often ships show up nowhere near where I hope for them to be.

I have had success placing ships by starting with a Destroyer on the map for the mission I'm writing and driving my ship to each position I want to place a unit and then recording the exact Long/Lat (with Ctrl+D) to obtain the coordinates to be written in the mission file.

While doing this I also place map notes to layout the planned formations for the mission.

Tim

BradR · 09-07-14, 12:23 PM

I've actually had a lot of success using the increment method. I noticed very early on that the coordinates in game are different than the ones used in the programming. The coordinates in the game stop at x.60 before changing to the next x coordinate where in the programming it goes to x.99. I have no problem getting the ships to show up exactly where I want them. They just don't stay in the formation I want them to. The ctrl+D will help may help in exactly placing the ships, especially land batteries, so I'll try it and get accustomed to it. Thank you for the tip. I'm going to try to space the ships using increments of .10 or .15 and see if that helps. It does seem like they are over correcting to avoid collisions. That may explain the big swarming mass. If anyone has any other tips for making scenarios, I'm all ears!

tmccarthy · 09-07-14, 06:44 PM

Cool. I think you are on the right track addressing ship spacing and AI overreacting to avoid collision. Might it have something to do with the starting "speed order"?

I've noticed that even with a small unit like four DD's in column at 500 yard intervals ordering Full Ahead from a dead stop can cause problems with the formation, ships spacing and ships overtaking each other.

The AI seems to do better when it's "handled gently". Starting slow 1/3 Ahead for a bit and then 2/3 Ahead and so on.

I wonder how your formation would hold together with a very slow starting speed like Exact,2 (3.6 knots)?

tmccarthy · 09-07-14, 09:42 PM

Also in regards to Exact Speeds in the example in the first post there is:

Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,21,-1,-1

Would that indicate a speed above 36 knots?

I use the "SDF Editor's Aid for SHII and DC" by Kapitanleutnant Hahl which defines EXACT speed units as meters per second with examples:

1 (mps) = 1.8 knots

5 (mps) = 9.0 knots

10 (mps) = 18 knots

BradR · 09-14-14, 08:51 PM

Sorry for the pause of my reply, I was inundated with homework. I had believed the 21 to stand for knots. I changed the speed to 11.67 mps. Is this an acceptable set of orders for handling them gently?

[GROUP2]
Type = SHIPSQUADRON
UnitType = BATTLESHIP
Side = 2
Name = I-V Battle Squadron
Nationality = German
Order1.1 = ROE,Capital,Unlimited,Destroy,Cruising,Full,-1,-1
Order1.2 = Formation,FORM_AS_ARE,500,8,-1,-1
Order1.3 = Speed,Exact,2,-1,-1
Order1.4 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.755000,-1,-1
Order2.1 = Speed,Exact,5,-1,-1
Order2.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.765000,-1,-1
Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,8,-1,-1
Order3.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.775000,-1,-1
Order4.1 = Speed,Exact,11.67,-1,-1
Order4.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1
Order5.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,56.000000,-1,-1
Order6.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1
Order7.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,56.000000,-1,-1
Order8.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1
WayptDisplay = DO_NOT_SHOW

BradR · 09-14-14, 09:01 PM

And where can I find the "SDF Editor's Aid for SHII and DC"? I'd very much like to read it.

tmccarthy · 09-15-14, 08:28 PM

Yeah... the SDF Editor's Aid is here. Exact speeds are in the bottom half in "Groups" section.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//sho...d.php?t=139617

Another good one is the SH2 Scenario Hand Edit Guide in the Subsim Legacy Download SHII section

For Exact speeds I use these numbers:

Exact / knots
1 = 1.8
2 = 3.6
3 = 5.4
4 = 7.2
5 = 9.0
6 = 10.8
7 = 12.6
8 = 14.4
9 = 16.2
10 = 18.0
11 = 19.8
12 = 21.6
13 = 23.4
14 = 25.2
15 = 27.0
16 = 28.8
17 = 30.6
18 = 32.4
19 = 34.2
20 = 36.0

Although I like your technique of using exact speeds that result in even knot speeds... 15 knots, 21 knots etc.

Your orders and starting speeds for "I-V Battle Squadron" look good to me. Does that help the formation hold together better?

09-06-14, 11:13 AM	#1
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	Question about Destroyer Command ship behaviors Hi! I was wondering if some of you master modders could graciously help me with a problem I'm having with one of my Destroyer Command mods. Here's the problem. I created a very ambitious mod that is based on the Battle of Jutland. I basically created the entire Imperial German High Seas Fleet. Everything from the Battleships König and Grosser Kurfürst to the Destroyers H202 and S223. Everything has worked perfectly EXCEPT the ships aren't behaving as I've programmed them too. As far as I know, I programmed them to stay in formation and travel in a loop to two coordinates. An example taken from my actual program goes like this: [SCENARIO] Date = 19391013 Time = 1300 Type = TYPE A Duration = 7200 //number of hours; 5 days TimeOut = 0 Origin = 6.500000,56.500000 Weather = OVERCAST Major = 10 Minor = 5 InitialZoom = 5 TitleEnglish = The Second Battle of Jutland, 1939 TitleGerman = TitleFrench = Preprocess = TRUE DrawOvlyText = TRUE [GROUP2] Type = SHIPSQUADRON UnitType = BATTLESHIP Side = 2 Name = I Battle Squadron Nationality = German Order1.1 = ROE,Capital,Unlimited,Destroy,Cruising,Full,-1,-1 Order2.1 = Formation,FORM_AS_ARE,500,8,-1,-1 Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,21,-1,-1 Order4.1 = WayPt2,6.485000,57.500000,-1,-1 Order5.1 = WayPt2,6.485000,55.500000,-1,-1 Order6.1 = LoopPatrol,1,99,-1,-1 WayptDisplay = DO_NOT_SHOW [UNIT4] Group = 2 TypeAbrev = BB Class = NBBTirpitz Name = Sachsen Location = 6.495000,55.915000 Orientation = 0 BoilersHot = TRUE Fuel = 0.99 Captain = 100 Crew = 100 MultiSelect = TRUE IconName = NSHIP Display = DO_NOT_SHOW Unfortunately the ships do not stay in formation or travel to the coordinates I programmed. Instead they go off in all different directions and for the most part, in a rightmost direction from the direction I would like them to go. If I could get the ships to travel on the course I set, the map would be perfect to me! I have a hypothesis as to why they don't behave the way I want them to. I think it may be because I have too many ships on the field. There are 147 ships in total on the German side. Have I overloaded the game engine with too many ships and that is why they do not behave as well as I would like? If anyone can confirm or disprove this hypothesis and let me know how to get the ships to behave as I want them too? It would be much appreciated. Thank you very much to the community for taking the time to read this post and provide any feedback. Sincerely, BradR.

09-07-14, 06:44 PM	#7
tmccarthy Admiral Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,302 Downloads: 270 Uploads: 16	Cool. I think you are on the right track addressing ship spacing and AI overreacting to avoid collision. Might it have something to do with the starting "speed order"? I've noticed that even with a small unit like four DD's in column at 500 yard intervals ordering Full Ahead from a dead stop can cause problems with the formation, ships spacing and ships overtaking each other. The AI seems to do better when it's "handled gently". Starting slow 1/3 Ahead for a bit and then 2/3 Ahead and so on. I wonder how your formation would hold together with a very slow starting speed like Exact,2 (3.6 knots)? Last edited by tmccarthy; 09-07-14 at 08:32 PM. Reason: corrected value "Exact, 2 (3.6 knots)"

09-06-14, 07:58 PM	#2
Hinrich Schwab Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 908 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 0	The DC/SH2 engine, even after patches and PM installed, is funny about maintaining formations. With that many ships, the engine is not overloaded, but it sounds like that the ships are stepping all over each other and over-correcting to avoid collisions. What is the interval between ships? If they are too close, they will go nuts. Could you share some more details as to how the ships are acting and how consistent the chaos is.

09-06-14, 11:26 PM	#3
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	The ships bunch into a main group with a few outlying ships going in varied directions. It looks something like this ^ / I x I xx x ----> xxxxx outlyer xx big jumbled, squirming bunch <--- x x -----> They are originally in a formation that looks like this: x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x destroyers x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x cruisers x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x etc. The chaos is consistent with every ship on the field. They are either in the squirming bunch that slowly makes it's way in relatively the desired direction or an individual outlayer that keeps going in a random direction until it hits land, as I tried to get my crude diagram to show. The spacing between each ship, both forward and to the side, is increments of .005. By what I mean is, if the first ship is at coordinates: 6.485000,55.915000 then the ship to the immediate right is at coordinates: 6.490000,55.915000 and the ship right below them is at coordinates: 6.485000,55.910000 Make sense? Could it be that I have them spaced too closely? Should I use increments of .010 or more? By the way, thank you so much for the help.

09-06-14, 11:28 PM	#4
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	diagram didn't work when the post was sent but the idea is there's a big, swarming bunch going one relative direction and then a few individual ships going in random directions.

09-07-14, 03:24 AM	#5
tmccarthy Admiral Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,302 Downloads: 270 Uploads: 16	Have you tried the Ctrl+D function to find exact Long/Lat positions? In the sim pressing Ctrl+D once give you an overlay with info such as frames per second. Pressing Ctrl+D again gives you "Position": the exact longitude and latitude of your ship to the smallest increment like for example 06.485359,55.915672. I've not had success placing ships using my own coordinates, nor been able to understand the logic of adding increments to space units accurately. Often ships show up nowhere near where I hope for them to be. I have had success placing ships by starting with a Destroyer on the map for the mission I'm writing and driving my ship to each position I want to place a unit and then recording the exact Long/Lat (with Ctrl+D) to obtain the coordinates to be written in the mission file. While doing this I also place map notes to layout the planned formations for the mission. Tim

09-07-14, 12:23 PM	#6
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	I've actually had a lot of success using the increment method. I noticed very early on that the coordinates in game are different than the ones used in the programming. The coordinates in the game stop at x.60 before changing to the next x coordinate where in the programming it goes to x.99. I have no problem getting the ships to show up exactly where I want them. They just don't stay in the formation I want them to. The ctrl+D will help may help in exactly placing the ships, especially land batteries, so I'll try it and get accustomed to it. Thank you for the tip. I'm going to try to space the ships using increments of .10 or .15 and see if that helps. It does seem like they are over correcting to avoid collisions. That may explain the big swarming mass. If anyone has any other tips for making scenarios, I'm all ears!

09-07-14, 09:42 PM	#8
tmccarthy Admiral Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,302 Downloads: 270 Uploads: 16	Also in regards to Exact Speeds in the example in the first post there is: Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,21,-1,-1 Would that indicate a speed above 36 knots? I use the "SDF Editor's Aid for SHII and DC" by Kapitanleutnant Hahl which defines EXACT speed units as meters per second with examples: 1 (mps) = 1.8 knots 5 (mps) = 9.0 knots 10 (mps) = 18 knots

09-14-14, 08:51 PM	#9
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	Sorry for the pause of my reply, I was inundated with homework. I had believed the 21 to stand for knots. I changed the speed to 11.67 mps. Is this an acceptable set of orders for handling them gently? [GROUP2] Type = SHIPSQUADRON UnitType = BATTLESHIP Side = 2 Name = I-V Battle Squadron Nationality = German Order1.1 = ROE,Capital,Unlimited,Destroy,Cruising,Full,-1,-1 Order1.2 = Formation,FORM_AS_ARE,500,8,-1,-1 Order1.3 = Speed,Exact,2,-1,-1 Order1.4 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.755000,-1,-1 Order2.1 = Speed,Exact,5,-1,-1 Order2.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.765000,-1,-1 Order3.1 = Speed,Exact,8,-1,-1 Order3.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,55.775000,-1,-1 Order4.1 = Speed,Exact,11.67,-1,-1 Order4.2 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1 Order5.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,56.000000,-1,-1 Order6.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1 Order7.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,56.000000,-1,-1 Order8.1 = WayPt2,6.455000,57.000000,-1,-1 WayptDisplay = DO_NOT_SHOW

09-14-14, 09:01 PM	#10
BradR Watch Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 18 Downloads: 97 Uploads: 0	And where can I find the "SDF Editor's Aid for SHII and DC"? I'd very much like to read it.

09-15-14, 08:28 PM	#11
tmccarthy Admiral Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,302 Downloads: 270 Uploads: 16	Yeah... the SDF Editor's Aid is here. Exact speeds are in the bottom half in "Groups" section. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//sho...d.php?t=139617 Another good one is the SH2 Scenario Hand Edit Guide in the Subsim Legacy Download SHII section For Exact speeds I use these numbers: Exact / knots 1 = 1.8 2 = 3.6 3 = 5.4 4 = 7.2 5 = 9.0 6 = 10.8 7 = 12.6 8 = 14.4 9 = 16.2 10 = 18.0 11 = 19.8 12 = 21.6 13 = 23.4 14 = 25.2 15 = 27.0 16 = 28.8 17 = 30.6 18 = 32.4 19 = 34.2 20 = 36.0 Although I like your technique of using exact speeds that result in even knot speeds... 15 knots, 21 knots etc. Your orders and starting speeds for "I-V Battle Squadron" look good to me. Does that help the formation hold together better?