New to Game. Is this right?

[mattlach]

Hey all,


I'm just getting back into sub sims after an almost 30 year hiatus. (Last one was Silent Service II :p)


I like the pacific campaign, so I decided to go with SH4.


I've been starting out with the training missions (Sub School)



The first three sessions seemed pretty OK. I am stating to get a handle on how to navigate and operate the sub, though I still have a lot to learn.


The problems arise on the final convoy attack training mission.


Essentially, a slow convoy consisting of three modern large tankers, three other freighters, protected by three Akizuke class destroyers approaches slowly.


I try to position myself to be able to not be detected by the destroyers and pick off the merchant vessels. Most of the time I fail (but hey, I am still learning) but when I do, I go for the large modern tankers as they seem like the biggest prize.


The parts that seem odd to me are as follows:


1.) I have absolutely POUNDED those tankers with torpedoes. I've succeeded setting them ablaze, introducing a heavy list, but no matter what I do the damned things just wont sink. These are soft targets, shouldn't they go down rather easy? 5 torpedo hits later the damn thing still isn't going down. Is this right?


2.) Destroyer escorts are now approaching at speed. I decide to engage the first one with my remaining aft torpedo. Hit. It goes down in one shot.


3.) I spend some time trying to evade the other two, diving deep, waiting for my torpedo tubes to reload (damn this takes long) poking up every now and then to look around. At one point I accidentally surfaced right next to the two destroyers with no torpedoes loaded. I figured, might as well go out in a blaze of glory, so I manned the deck gun and pummeled the two destroyers at relatively close range. They of course fired back, but scored surprisingly few hits. Completely and overwhelmingly outgunned (their combined 16 4" guns, vs my single 3" deck gun) and out armored to my absolute shock, continuing to hit them with the deck gun I sank them both. I thought the number one rule was "never engage a healthy warship with the deck gun, you'll lose". I am baffled as to why the destroyers were so easy to sink with the deck gun. I should have been totally outclassed, but instead escaped with only minor damage.



4.) Anyway, at this point the merchant vessels are getting away. Unprotected they should be easy to pick off now right? Well, that wasn't my experience. I make chase while surfaced (as submerged they are faster) and as I am catching up, I keep getting notifications of repair to my sub. Even the tanker that absorbed 5 of my torpedoes, still listing heavily and on fire, is making its way away from me at the same speed as the rest of the convoy.


5.) As I get close, I am getting a hail of gunfire unlike what the destroyers unleashed. I know many merchant vessels were armed, and I expected that, but my expectation was that compared to Destroyer gunfire, they should be easy. I got absolutely pummeled by them. Was never able to catch up with the large modern tanker I had done a lot of damage to. They sunk me.




None of this makes nay sense to me. Is that training mission just messed up?


- Should the tanker really have been able to withstand 5 torpedoes? (none of them were duds)
- Should I really have been able to destroy two destroyers up close and personal with nothing but my teeny little 3" deck gun?
- Should the merchant vessels have been able to pummel me like a goddamn battleship?



I have to say, the balance of this training mission seems all off, and if this is what the rest of the game is like, it doesn't seem promising.


Any thoughts? Should I just not be putting too much emphasis on a seemingly throwaway training mission?

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by mattlach

Hey all,


I'm just getting back into sub sims after an almost 30 year hiatus. (Last one was Silent Service II :p)


I like the pacific campaign, so I decided to go with SH4.


I've been starting out with the training missions (Sub School)



The first three sessions seemed pretty OK. I am stating to get a handle on how to navigate and operate the sub, though I still have a lot to learn.


The problems arise on the final convoy attack training mission.


Essentially, a slow convoy consisting of three modern large tankers, three other freighters, protected by three Akizuke class destroyers approaches slowly.


I try to position myself to be able to not be detected by the destroyers and pick off the merchant vessels. Most of the time I fail (but hey, I am still learning) but when I do, I go for the large modern tankers as they seem like the biggest prize.


The parts that seem odd to me are as follows:


1.) I have absolutely POUNDED those tankers with torpedoes. I've succeeded setting them ablaze, introducing a heavy list, but no matter what I do the damned things just wont sink. These are soft targets, shouldn't they go down rather easy? 5 torpedo hits later the damn thing still isn't going down. Is this right?


2.) Destroyer escorts are now approaching at speed. I decide to engage the first one with my remaining aft torpedo. Hit. It goes down in one shot.


3.) I spend some time trying to evade the other two, diving deep, waiting for my torpedo tubes to reload (damn this takes long) poking up every now and then to look around. At one point I accidentally surfaced right next to the two destroyers with no torpedoes loaded. I figured, might as well go out in a blaze of glory, so I manned the deck gun and pummeled the two destroyers at relatively close range. They of course fired back, but scored surprisingly few hits. Completely and overwhelmingly outgunned (their combined 16 4" guns, vs my single 3" deck gun) and out armored to my absolute shock, continuing to hit them with the deck gun I sank them both. I thought the number one rule was "never engage a healthy warship with the deck gun, you'll lose". I am baffled as to why the destroyers were so easy to sink with the deck gun. I should have been totally outclassed, but instead escaped with only minor damage.



4.) Anyway, at this point the merchant vessels are getting away. Unprotected they should be easy to pick off now right? Well, that wasn't my experience. I make chase while surfaced (as submerged they are faster) and as I am catching up, I keep getting notifications of repair to my sub. Even the tanker that absorbed 5 of my torpedoes, still listing heavily and on fire, is making its way away from me at the same speed as the rest of the convoy.


5.) As I get close, I am getting a hail of gunfire unlike what the destroyers unleashed. I know many merchant vessels were armed, and I expected that, but my expectation was that compared to Destroyer gunfire, they should be easy. I got absolutely pummeled by them. Was never able to catch up with the large modern tanker I had done a lot of damage to. They sunk me.




None of this makes nay sense to me. Is that training mission just messed up?


- Should the tanker really have been able to withstand 5 torpedoes? (none of them were duds)
- Should I really have been able to destroy two destroyers up close and personal with nothing but my teeny little 3" deck gun?
- Should the merchant vessels have been able to pummel me like a goddamn battleship?



I have to say, the balance of this training mission seems all off, and if this is what the rest of the game is like, it doesn't seem promising.


Any thoughts? Should I just not be putting too much emphasis on a seemingly throwaway training mission?

matt,

you certainly touched a lot of buttons in your training reps. let's see if we can give some constructive feedback.

you did not include a mod list so the assumption is that you are playing Stock. can you reply with which version of Stock you are playing? 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 *with or without Uboat Missions.

how many torpedoes does it take to sink a ship? well, it depends. () it depends on the mod set and it depends on the torpedo options.
first the mod set. Stock merchant ships will sink fairly easily provided that the torpedo(es) actually explode. more on that in the next bullet. DD/DE will sink with one actual hint in Stock. There is a post somewhere in the forum where a kaleun has listed the usual number of hits it will take to sink a particular class of vessel. as you progress in playing, you will discover that modders change ship vulnerability to absorb damage according to their mod-goals. For example, some mods make DD/DE almost immune to bow-on hits. i do not want to get too far into the weeds at this point in your career, just know that Stock has the easiest sinking models.

next, torpedo options. there are Gameplay options available that can vary the success or failure of your torpedoes. the Option on the Main Menu will control the Options for Single Missions and War Patrols, and also the Training missions. When you begin a career, there is a different set of options to set. The US side is set using the radio Set on the left. for the Germans, use the file cabinet on the right.

when you play with Torpedo Defects turned on, you will experience the full array of torpedo defects: running too deep, prematures, circular runners, duds, and probably a couple more which i cannot remember at this time. Sometimes, a torpedo appears to "hit" a target but in fact it does little damage because there was some sort of failure. that is probably what happened with your tanker and that is also probably why she sailed away from you.

as far as gun battles go, try to avoid them as you will come out worse-for-wear. your example is a good one: you beat the snot out of a couple of DD/DE and then catch what-for from the merchies. as a rule, consider all surface ships a clear-and-present danger when you are on the surface. also as a rule, i do not surface within 7000 yds of any merchie, even if they are un escorted. Depending on the AI for the enemy 7k may still be too close.

that's all for now. study up on your torpedo targeting on which you inquired in a separate post.

keep playing the Training mission until you get it right.
good luck!

[mattlach]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

matt,

you certainly touched a lot of buttons in your training reps. let's see if we can give some constructive feedback.

you did not include a mod list so the assumption is that you are playing Stock. can you reply with which version of Stock you are playing? 1.3, 1.4, 1.5 *with or without Uboat Missions.

how many torpedoes does it take to sink a ship? well, it depends. () it depends on the mod set and it depends on the torpedo options.
first the mod set. Stock merchant ships will sink fairly easily provided that the torpedo(es) actually explode. more on that in the next bullet. DD/DE will sink with one actual hint in Stock. There is a post somewhere in the forum where a kaleun has listed the usual number of hits it will take to sink a particular class of vessel. as you progress in playing, you will discover that modders change ship vulnerability to absorb damage according to their mod-goals. For example, some mods make DD/DE almost immune to bow-on hits. i do not want to get too far into the weeds at this point in your career, just know that Stock has the easiest sinking models.

next, torpedo options. there are Gameplay options available that can vary the success or failure of your torpedoes. the Option on the Main Menu will control the Options for Single Missions and War Patrols, and also the Training missions. When you begin a career, there is a different set of options to set. The US side is set using the radio Set on the left. for the Germans, use the file cabinet on the right.

when you play with Torpedo Defects turned on, you will experience the full array of torpedo defects: running too deep, prematures, circular runners, duds, and probably a couple more which i cannot remember at this time. Sometimes, a torpedo appears to "hit" a target but in fact it does little damage because there was some sort of failure. that is probably what happened with your tanker and that is also probably why she sailed away from you.

as far as gun battles go, try to avoid them as you will come out worse-for-wear. your example is a good one: you beat the snot out of a couple of DD/DE and then catch what-for from the merchies. as a rule, consider all surface ships a clear-and-present danger when you are on the surface. also as a rule, i do not surface within 7000 yds of any merchie, even if they are un escorted. Depending on the AI for the enemy 7k may still be too close.

that's all for now. study up on your torpedo targeting on which you inquired in a separate post.

keep playing the Training mission until you get it right.
good luck!

Appreciate the info as always!


Seems like these modern subsims (as opposed to the 1989 Silent Service II I am used to) go into a great deal more detail.


I had assumed that the mods were for visuals, I didn't realize they also altered gameplay and balance.


As I think you saw in another thread, I am trying to install the Fall of the Rising Sun mod before I get into starting an actual campaign. I'm looking for something as balanced and real world as possible. I'm working my way up to manual targeting, getting used to all the other controls first.


I'm not sure how I feel about immunity to bow on hits. Certainly that's not particularly realistic? I mean, an impact detonated torpedo might just give a glancing blow without exploding (maybe?) but certainly a magnetic fused torpedo would detonate, and a destroyer can't possibly be immune to that.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by mattlach

I'm not sure how I feel about immunity to bow on hits. Certainly that's not particularly realistic? I mean, an impact detonated torpedo might just give a glancing blow without exploding (maybe?) but certainly a magnetic fused torpedo would detonate, and a destroyer can't possibly be immune to that.

voice your concern with Propbeanie and FOTRSU Crew.
it is their concept.
i agree with you.

[Mad Mardigan]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

voice your concern with Propbeanie and FOTRSU Crew.
it is their concept.
i agree with you.

I, too.. concur...

M. M.

[Front Runner]

I am a BIG fan of FOTRSU and I continue to comment and contribute to the FOTRSU team efforts to make this Supermod the best ever.
That being said, in it's current state it has several game killing bugs. The gauges at high noon bug is what killed my first career patrol after contacting a convoy near Tokyo. The problems have been identified and in the process of being corrected.
In the meantime, I recommend that you go with Ralles Mod Pack which includes Trigger Maru Overhauled v2.5, Run Silent Run Deep Campaign, OTC, and Ralles Modsoup.



By using Rockin Robbins Corruption Management System for SH4, you can set up and run multiple copies of modded SH4. I'm currently running SH4 v1.5 Vanilla, SH4 RFB (Real Fleet Boat), FOTRSU v1.26, and TMO/Ralles Mod Pack. Each iteration has its own folders and settings so that switching mods is as easy as clicking the SH4.exe within the folder you're choosing to play.

If you are going to get into the SH4 Supermod scene, you are going to want to go this route. There is a slight learning curve to using Rockin Robbins Corruption Management System. One thing I should mention is that after creating a new iteration of SH4 from the Pristine Copy, you will need to disable new folders (SH4TMO) "Read Only" setting in order to use the MultiSH4 tool within. PM me if you need more info on this "issue."

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=5125

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...ghlight=Ralles