GWX night vision question for experienced GWX players

[ivanov.ruslan]

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Hi guys, I've been procrastinating to write about how the visual sensors are broken by Makman's included modification of the same in M.E.P v6.

Makman set the visual sensor minimum height value at "0.0" (zero) +/-.

Zero is the height of the water plane if it were compared to a plate of glass. The above value does not account for things such as visual fog-factor and visual light value modifiers.

However, it does result in virtually automatic detection of objects as small as periscopes, at incredible ranges in SH3, by visual sensors in clear weather states, including night in SH3.

It appears that Makman's MinHeight visual sensor setting has been incorporated into the Hsie "Night Vision Fix" adjuster. Although I think I might know, it is not clear to me which value that adjuster alters.

However, I can tell you that in GWX 3.0 as delivered, the visual sensor minimum height is set at 0.4 meters. In my experience, the best modifiers to that value, appear to relate to wave height and fog factor. For clarity, the minimum height value is not an angle.

My advice, without any intention to be a jerk, is to either not use Makman's 'Visual Sensor fix" for GWX, and/or delete the AI_Sensors.dat as included with his environment mod / M.E.P v6. His visual sensor modification truly breaks and completely ubers the enemy AI visual sensors in SH3 and/or GWX, and accounts for a number of threads I've seen here.... with the commonality being M.E.P v6 with Makman's 'Visual Sensor fix" for GWX being in place.


I am truly not trying to be problematic here, but for clarity, the visual sensor minimum height factor set to zero in the Sensors_AI.dat file, completely BORKS the sensor.


I really like the 20k horizon mod, although I think the moon reflection in M.E.P v6 might be broken.... am still chasing confirmation of the broken reflection in my testing.... If it is broken, I'll try to fix it. Makman94 did some really neat things in modding directions other than sensors modification. Again, not trying to be a jerk, but after experiencing and reading about the problem described in this thread and several others, I am really concerned about his testing methodology and what other alterations to sensors he might have made. Describing his visual sensor modification as a "fix" does not seem appropriate to me. "Option".... sure! "Fix".... certainly not so.

Collectively we've been fighting vampire night vision in SH3 for 15 years now. So tiresome.

[Fifi]

Thanks for those clarifications Kpt Lehmann Very useful.

Running currently few SH3 mega mods all together (thanks multiSH3!) I’m not fan anymore of MEP env (even though i was before...) as i don’t like some of its rendering (mainly waves shapes)

As to GWX concern, I’m running LSH3 ATM blue water mod (found in the LSH3 download) but with stock LSH3 scene.dat who deliver my favorite env rendering in GWX... hence running stock GWX sensors

So if i understood well, we would have to deactivate also the Night vision fix in Hsie Patch?

[John Pancoast]

Thanks Kpt ! Fwiw, on occasion I still get clear night vision of 16k even with "stock" GWX and NYGM with H.sie's night vision option in his patch applied. His recommended change to the sensors.cfg file was done.
Just had it in two different convoy attacks in NYGM. If it helps, I can see the same as the AI in these scenarios.

Very strange.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Fifi

Thanks for those clarifications Kpt Lehmann Very useful.

Running currently few SH3 mega mods all together (thanks multiSH3!) I’m not fan anymore of MEP env (even though i was before...) as i don’t like some of its rendering (mainly waves shapes)

As to GWX concern, I’m running LSH3 ATM blue water mod (found in the LSH3 download) but with stock LSH3 scene.dat who deliver my favorite env rendering in GWX... hence running stock GWX sensors

So if i understood well, we would have to deactivate also the Night vision fix in Hsie Patch?

Well, to answer your question there is two parts.
One: If you are using Makman94's visual sensor fix for GWX, and Hsie's hardcode fixes, first reset the night vision controller / adjuster in Hsie's program. Then disable the Makman94's visual sensor fix for GWX, or whatever mod contains it. Then either delete the AI_Sensors.dat file in Makman's mod, or delete Makman's MEP v6 altogether.

Two, placing the adjuster in Hsie's hardcode fix files back to stock, and then removing Makman's 'fix' should return your installation back to whatever it was before applying the Makman's fix. The main idea, is to reset the game installation back to normal setting without harming that installation.

The million dollar question that I really need to have an authoritative answer for is, "Exactly which value or values in the sensors files, does the Hsie night vision adjuster slide alter?"

It is hard to say more, until I know exactly what the Hsie night vision adjuster is doing. We cannot work accurately with assumptions. If you know for sure, could you please post a link? I would like to see what Hsie, or whoever wrote the adjuster program, has to say.

It may be on an Hsie post or thread here. I just haven't found it yet if it does exist.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Thanks Kpt ! Fwiw, on occasion I still get clear night vision of 16k even with "stock" GWX and NYGM with H.sie's night vision option in his patch applied. His recommended change to the sensors.cfg file was done.
Just had it in two different convoy attacks in NYGM. If it helps, I can see the same as the AI in these scenarios.

Very strange.

Sorry if this seems remedial, but are you referring to how far you can see graphically speaking, or are you referring to your crew's visual sensor range. I assume it is the latter, but want to make sure.

One thing is for certain, the visual sensors, particularly as used by the AI, don't leave you with enough string to tie your boots.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Sorry if this seems remedial, but are you referring to how far you can see graphically speaking, or are you referring to your crew's visual sensor range. I assume it is the latter, but want to make sure.

One thing is for certain, the visual sensors, particularly as used by the AI, don't leave you with enough string to tie your boots.

Graphically; when the crew cries out ship sighted and it's at 16k on a clear night, I can see the same ship(s) as they through my binos.

The GWX ship markers also appear on the map at the same time. Had it happen again today in an NYGM patrol. Takes the wind outta one's sails.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Graphically; when the crew cries out ship sighted and it's at 16k on a clear night, I can see the same ship(s) as they through my binos.

The GWX ship markers also appear on the map at the same time. Had it happen again today in an NYGM patrol. Takes the wind outta one's sails.

Clear night with little wind? How about fog?

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Clear night with little wind? How about fog?

Also, can you tell me if you are using the Hsie night vision adjuster thingy? (What is it's proper name LOL?)


Can you open your Sim.cfg and copy the text of same here for me?

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Clear night with little wind? How about fog?

All stages of wind; light, some, lots. No fog, stars showing.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Also, can you tell me if you are using the Hsie night vision adjuster thingy? (What is it's proper name LOL?)


Can you open your Sim.cfg and copy the text of same here for me?

Yes, using H.sie's night vision fix via his patch. Not a slider though; just a selection box one chooses to enable it.

It's either fully on or fully off via the selection; no in between.


Here's my GWX sim.cfg. Stock GWX I believe.



[Mech]
Waves amplitude=0.70 ;[0,1]
Waves attenuation=0.06 ;>=0

[AI Cannons]
Max error angle=3 ;[deg]
Max fire range=31000 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

[AI detection]
Lost contact time=30 ;[min]

[Visual]
Detection time=0.5 ;[s] min detection time.
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1) at (sensitivity * max range) we have a double detection time.
Fog factor=1.25 ;[>=0]
Light factor=2.0 ;[>=0]
Waves factor=1.0 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=350 ;[m2]
Enemy speed factor=15 ;[kt]

[Radar]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.9 ;[>=0]
Enemy surface factor=5.0 ;[m2]

[Hydrophone]
Detection time=1 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.04 ;(0..1)
Height factor=0 ;[m]
Waves factor=0.75 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=20 ;[kt]
Noise factor=0.5 ;[>=0]

[Sonar]
Detection time=10 ;[s]
Sensitivity=0.01 ;(0..1)
Waves factor=0.6 ;[>=0]
Speed factor=15 ;[kt]
Enemy surface factor=100 ;[m2]
Lose time=30 ;[s]

[John Pancoast]

Oh, and H.sie's instructions say to have the following done to one's sensor.cfg file which I have done. I have not tried adjusting the setting in the Hsie.ini file.
Maybe that's the slider you're thinking of.



19. Night Vision Fix (by Makman94, Rubini, h.sie)
This fix addresses the so-called „Vampire Night Vision Bug“: In a clear but dark night, your Uboat watchcrew can see a ship in 15km distance, while an enemy warship watchcrew cannot see your Uboat in 300m distance (at least in GWX). This hardcode fix eliminates this problem. Not only the watchcrew has lowered visible range, also the player on his monitor,
since the mod changes the rendering of the objects at night using a simple environmental hack: A fog-curtain is moved, depending on the sun position. At daylight, the fog curtain is not changed, but as soon as the sun hides behind the horizon, the fog-curtain is continuously moved closer to the Uboat. So the balance between the players eyes and the watchcrews eyes is widely kept.
Per default, the fix reduces visibility at dark night about 50% (factor 0.5), but this factor can be adjusted in the hsie.ini file. Set the value e.g. to 0.75 in order to have a 25% reduction of visibility at night.
Recommended Crew Sensor Settings in data/cfg/Sensors.cfg (tentative values):
· Visual range factor = 0.5
· Visual fog factor = 1.02 (see below!)
· Visual light factor = 0.8
The „best“ Visual fog factor depends on the chosen environment and your monitor settings and must be individually fine-adjusted between approx. 1.00 and 1.05. If your crew detects a ship at night, before you can see it through the binocular on your monitor, the Visual fog factor must be slightly enlarged and vice versa.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Oh, and H.sie's instructions say to have the following done to one's sensor.cfg file which I have done. I have not tried adjusting the setting in the Hsie.ini file.
Maybe that's the slider you're thinking of.

19. Night Vision Fix (by Makman94, Rubini, h.sie)
This fix addresses the so-called „Vampire Night Vision Bug“: In a clear but dark night, your Uboat watchcrew can see a ship in 15km distance, while an enemy warship watchcrew cannot see your Uboat in 300m distance (at least in GWX). This hardcode fix eliminates this problem. Not only the watchcrew has lowered visible range, also the player on his monitor,
since the mod changes the rendering of the objects at night using a simple environmental hack: A fog-curtain is moved, depending on the sun position. At daylight, the fog curtain is not changed, but as soon as the sun hides behind the horizon, the fog-curtain is continuously moved closer to the Uboat. So the balance between the players eyes and the watchcrews eyes is widely kept.
Per default, the fix reduces visibility at dark night about 50% (factor 0.5), but this factor can be adjusted in the hsie.ini file. Set the value e.g. to 0.75 in order to have a 25% reduction of visibility at night.
Recommended Crew Sensor Settings in data/cfg/Sensors.cfg (tentative values):
· Visual range factor = 0.5
· Visual fog factor = 1.02 (see below!)
· Visual light factor = 0.8
The „best“ Visual fog factor depends on the chosen environment and your monitor settings and must be individually fine-adjusted between approx. 1.00 and 1.05. If your crew detects a ship at night, before you can see it through the binocular on your monitor, the Visual fog factor must be slightly enlarged and vice versa.

Thank you. As an aside, in the GWX Sim.cfg, you can change the following if you like, from:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

to the following

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=2500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

(aircraft fire machineguns/20mm wayyy too early in GWX.... the above corrects same)

************************************************** ****

Below is the GWX default visual sensor section of the Sensors.cfg.

;Visual.
Visual range factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Visual fog factor=1.1 ;[>=0]
Visual light factor=5.0 ;[>=0]
Visual waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual aspect=0.9 ;[>=0]
Visual enemy speed=0.2 ;[>=0]
Visual noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual sensor height factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Visual already tracking modifier=600 ;[detection probability modifier], most accurate, once a contact is detected it will lose it very hard
Visual decay time=200 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Visual uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

I need to obtain more information before I can reply effectively. AS long as you are not using any AI_Sensors.dat produced by Makman94, within M.E.P or not, that claims to 'fix GWX visual sensors,' that much is good.

I'm sorry John, my eyes are starting to cross and I'm afraid of losing track of enemy AI visual matters versus U-boat crew settings. I'm losing my place here. I will try to come at it again tomorrow. I swear that I'm really not trying to beat up on Makman. He isn't here to defend himself, but with all I've seen, I really cannot trust his sensor settings on any sort of clinical basis. Rubini was really good at finding neat stuff, but was often happy removing the shells from boiled eggs with a sledgehammer. Therefore, looking more closely at his works is indeed a worthwhile endeavor.

Other findings earlier today. Towards the beginning of this thread, (I think, will double check and edit if necessary.) Someone is using the SC-7 single mission as a measure for night vision and I wanted to see things for myself. (Pun intended.)

I ran just one test due to time constraints. Fully surfaced. 4kt approach speed, balancing my bow-on aspect angle in relationship to two Black Swans / middle front of convoy and one to my port.

It was reported that they were being seen by the enemy forces while they were 8-9 km away.

I got just within 3500 meters before I was seen. Clear night with calm weather and see. Other than staying pretty slow at 4kt, and minimizing my aspect angle as best i could in relation to those escorts. I mode NO effort to conceal my U-boat. I'm pretty sure that had I gone to decks awash, I might have gotten closer.

Other notes: The moon reflection on the water in M.E.P v6 is indeed broken by the mod and is absent. At some point I think I am going to re-work the 20km horizon mod for GWX and will upload it whenever I get to it, if anyone is interested.

There is something I find to be very sinister about the Black Swans. They are effective in game, and are my favorite ASW vessel in SH3.

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Thank you. As an aside, in the GWX Sim.cfg, you can change the following if you like, from:

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=3500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

to the following

[AI AA guns]
Max error angle=5 ;[deg]
Max fire range=2500 ;[m]
Max fire wait=6 ;[s]

(aircraft fire machineguns/20mm wayyy too early in GWX.... the above corrects same)

************************************************** ****

Below is the GWX default visual sensor section of the Sensors.cfg.

;Visual.
Visual range factor=0.5 ;[>=0]
Visual fog factor=1.1 ;[>=0]
Visual light factor=5.0 ;[>=0]
Visual waves factor=0.8 ;[>=0]
Visual speed factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual aspect=0.9 ;[>=0]
Visual enemy speed=0.2 ;[>=0]
Visual noise factor=0 ;[>=0]
Visual sensor height factor=0.4 ;[>=0]
Visual already tracking modifier=600 ;[detection probability modifier], most accurate, once a contact is detected it will lose it very hard
Visual decay time=200 ;[>0] already tracking bonus decay, in seconds
Visual uses crew efficiency=true ;[true or false]

I need to obtain more information before I can reply effectively. AS long as you are not using any AI_Sensors.dat produced by Makman94, within M.E.P or not, that claims to 'fix GWX visual sensors,' that much is good.

I'm sorry John, my eyes are starting to cross and I'm afraid of losing track of enemy AI visual matters versus U-boat crew settings. I'm losing my place here. I will try to come at it again tomorrow. I swear that I'm really not trying to beat up on Makman. He isn't here to defend himself, but with all I've seen, I really cannot trust his sensor settings on any sort of clinical basis. Rubini was really good at finding neat stuff, but was often happy removing the shells from boiled eggs with a sledgehammer. Therefore, looking more closely at his works is indeed a worthwhile endeavor.

Other findings earlier today. Towards the beginning of this thread, (I think, will double check and edit if necessary.) Someone is using the SC-7 single mission as a measure for night vision and I wanted to see things for myself. (Pun intended.)

I ran just one test due to time constraints. Fully surfaced. 4kt approach speed, balancing my bow-on aspect angle in relationship to two Black Swans / middle front of convoy and one to my port.

It was reported that they were being seen by the enemy forces while they were 8-9 km away.

I got just within 3500 meters before I was seen. Clear night with calm weather and see. Other than staying pretty slow at 4kt, and minimizing my aspect angle as best i could in relation to those escorts. I mode NO effort to conceal my U-boat. I'm pretty sure that had I gone to decks awash, I might have gotten closer.

Other notes: The moon reflection on the water in M.E.P v6 is indeed broken by the mod and is absent. At some point I think I am going to re-work the 20km horizon mod for GWX and will upload it whenever I get to it, if anyone is interested.

There is something I find to be very sinister about the Black Swans. They are effective in game, and are my favorite ASW vessel in SH3.

Thanks for the aircraft fix. Never noticed as I always crash dive.



I've used Makman's work in NYGM in the past (not currently; stock NYGM env. being used), but never in GWX as I've always liked GWX's env. as is.


Regarding the SC7 mission, that was me to start this thread. But the problem was my crew was seeing the convoy at 16k, not the convoy seeing me to "early".
But since it was PAST ONE A.M. when you posted, the mistake is understandable .



I completely understand your points about Makman's and Rubini's work. Unfortunate about the moon too.


Yes too about the Black Swan's. I've always thought that name sounds like something that should be a character's name from the "Kill Bill" series.....

[John Pancoast]

Possible another wrench in the works; I'm using the "Malfunctions and Sabotage" option of SH3 Commander.


The only AI file I could see it's "Randomizedevents.cfg" file affect, which controls this option, is the sensors.dat file.


This .dat file has a visual node that I do not know the purpose of. But I bet you do



Anyway fyi.