The DW Mod Scene - Ok, WTF?

[Pillar]

I've been around for a long time and even I'm confused. I can't imagine how someone new coming to this would make out.

There are I gather at least five (?) different mods for DW, and the only one that seems well documented and public is LWAMI. DWX is now LWAMI I understand.... (again, ????)

The other three, "Milsab" "Alfa Tau" and "Reinforce Alert" are all non-English projects that seem to be insider mods, not generally meant for the public.

I'm not sure what the difference is between Milsab, AT, RA and LWAMI/DWX are to be honest, beyond the extra platforms.

Which one has the best AI? What has the most detail and focus on sonar and weapons? What about behaviour and accuracy of the individual platforms?

This can't be easy for noobs to figure out. Maybe we should have a thread with some overview of them.

[Molon Labe]

"DWX" is actually an alternate name for Reinforce-Alert. I think they decided to use it once it was clear the SCX team was not going to make a DWX. We did get permission to use a large number of SCX models for LWAMI, so that might be the cause of some confusion.

I'm happy to answer any questions about LWAMI, but I'd rather stay away from comparisons to the others out of deference to their work and also because with all the time I've been spending with LWAMI I haven't had much of a chance to try the others out.

I do have some good news for players new to mods. I've created a comprehensive LWAMI manual for the 3.10 edition that covers damn near everything the mod does. So now more than ever, people can know exactly what they're getting into. (Not that the old readme format was that bad, of course, but this is better IMO.)

[Castout]

Which one's the best is a very subjective issue and sensitive too .

For me PERSONALLY I really like Reinforce Alert 1.1 that's also called DWX 1.1.

It's just released couple days ago if not yesterday. To me it adds far larger number of modifications than any other existing mod for DW.

I'd choose RA 1.1(DWX) over any other but there's nothing wrong installing more than one DW installation and try all them out!

I've tried LWAMI 3.08-3.09 and Alfa Tau too myself.

When LWAMI first came out I cried it was the best mod for DW
and when then Alfa Tau came I cried the same too
and now that RA is out guess what I cry it's the best mod for DW.
LoL.

So you see they are ALL great. But they are all greatest in their own time. I can't speak for LWAMI 3.10 though.

[To be]

I've used both RA and LWAMI - I very much enjoy the ability to control multiple platforms in RA (as well as the enhanced weapons controls) - it adds a lot to the game. LWAMI however crashes less, (though RA doesn't crash too often), and the AI behavior in LWAMI seems much better than RA. I use LWAMI unless I specifically want to control a non-standard sub, mostly due to the better AI behavior.

[Castout]

If West meets East and LWAMI and RA team both work together we could have the greatest mod ever in 10 years time after they settle their feud

I haven't crashed one time in new RA 1.1

Though I noticed AI is less aggressive than in LWAMI as usual with RA mod. What I really like about RA aside from the many platform and torpedo doctrines is the quietness of electric sub. Electric sub is a nightmare in DW thanks to RA. I really like the feeling that subs now generally quieter and electric sub deadly quiet.

[Pillar]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I do have some good news for players new to mods. I've created a comprehensive LWAMI manual for the 3.10 edition that covers damn near everything the mod does. So now more than ever, people can know exactly what they're getting into. (Not that the old readme format was that bad, of course, but this is better IMO.)

I've gone through a good part of it now and I'm really impressed, thanks for putting this out. Biggest shock for me was that DW has been using only one size for sonar targets all this time >< Very glad to hear about these changes.

[NFunky]

+100 with To Be. The RA/DWX mod is amazing, but I'm going to keep using LWAMI until it includes a truely challenging AI, particularly for surface combatants. Right now it's too easy to kill well defended surface targets with torpedoes or missiles. I do really like the platforms/weapons and, to a point, the sonar performance in RA/DWX, but combat tends to favor the player a little to heavily, even when driving an inferior platform.

Basically the way I see the mod situation is LWAMI is the oldest kid on the block. It's the most stable, tweaked and perfected mod available and has made stock (unmodded) DW seem all but unusable. However, the new RA/DWX mod is very well done. While new and still a bit buggy, It adds incredible new features to the game and vastly expands options for mission building. Alfa Tau was a pretty cool mod for a while, but it has now been rendered somewhat obsolete by LWAMI and DWX. Honestly, I have no idea what the Milsab mod is, but it doesn't seem to be a very widely used one in this community.

Oh yeah, and I agree 100% that the mod situation is as transparent as the global economy. We really do need a sticky that simply lists the major mods and gives a brief description of what they do.

Originally Posted by To be

I've used both RA and LWAMI - I very much enjoy the ability to control multiple platforms in RA (as well as the enhanced weapons controls) - it adds a lot to the game. LWAMI however crashes less, (though RA doesn't crash too often), and the AI behavior in LWAMI seems much better than RA. I use LWAMI unless I specifically want to control a non-standard sub, mostly due to the better AI behavior.

You can check aggression in such a way.
Make an active ping.
Also see - as quickly AI will answer to you with a torpedo shot.
LWAMI will give an answer-back torpedo shot from 6 about 9 minutes.
RA - will answer immediately - no more than 1 minute. (distance passage of a signal up to the target both back and some seconds on procedure launch of torpedos) is taken into account.

LWAMI of the doctrine - the predicted algorithms of evasion use.
Reinforce Alert - all time uses different variants is is more unpredictable.

RA - takes into account the current depth of a sub with its speed - for prevention cavitation.
LWAMI - nothing takes into account.

RA - diesel boats correctly work at snorkeling.
LWAMI - snorkeling is absent.

RA - the noise by the surface ships - depends on their speed and grows linearly.
LWAMI - the surface ships change the noise only before occurrence cavitation.
If cavitation - then noise all time identical (base noise + 20). It concerns also submarines.

RA - the PD depth for AI of sub is correctly now.
LWAMI (and also original of game) - not correct depth. It is a mistake in the formula from sonalist.

RA - shoots SUBROCs very exact.
LWAMI - AI SUBROCs practically useless.

RA - action under polar ice real.
LWAMI - the submarines pass through ice as through butter, and are not damaged.

RA - begun AI helo from AI of the ship - at first will find out a submarine, then will drop torpedos.
LWAMI - begun AI helo from AI of the ship - simply will drop torpedos in a point to which has arrived, even if a submarine there already no.

RA - the radar on submarines of the player works without a bugs.
LWAMI - the radar on 688 and Seawolfs if is lifted on depth (PD - 1 ft) not counterdetected with ESM of AI platforms.
etc. etc...

Such differences - hundred.
But I shall not list them all.

[Pillar]

But I shall not list them all.

Well yes, do that. That's the point of the thread after all.

If the concern is accuracy, well, there are developers from both mods able to comment here so maybe in the process we'll clear up some confusion.

It's not a contest. Let's figure this out.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Castout

Though I noticed AI is less aggressive than in LWAMI as usual with RA mod.

Could you explain that a little more...do you mean AEGIS systems in particular?
Thx.

I had a look at some doctrines (Sub/ASW-planes/helos) of RA and they seem to be quite sophisticated, although I did not do any tests so far.

[To be]

Originally Posted by -GrayOwl-

You can check aggression in such a way.
Make an active ping.
Also see - as quickly AI will answer to you with a torpedo shot.
LWAMI will give an answer-back torpedo shot from 6 about 9 minutes.
RA - will answer immediately - no more than 1 minute. (distance passage of a signal up to the target both back and some seconds on procedure launch of torpedos) is taken into account.

LWAMI of the doctrine - the predicted algorithms of evasion use.
Reinforce Alert - all time uses different variants is is more unpredictable.
.
.
.

Such differences - hundred.
But I shall not list them all.

The response to particular events might be great - but all I can say is that in my experience the overall employment of tactics by the AI (especially from surface vessels) in RA is significantly less challenging to defeat than the LWAMI behavior. One particular way to see this is to set up a surface fleet of (AI) warships (say, a carrier group), and place a few (AI) subs ahead of the group on barrier patrol. The ships, in my experience, do a vastly better job fighting back in LWAMI than in RA. I use both mods of course, both have their strengths. I'd be happy to send you an example replay file of the kind of test I was talking about if you'd like to see them.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by -GrayOwl-

You can check aggression in such a way.

[cut]

RA - shoots SUBROCs very exact.
LWAMI - AI SUBROCs practically useless.

[cut]

And THIS is one hell of a big difference. AI subs with subrocs are very very deadly, we in Betasom learned the lesson.
Lada/Kilo AI subs getting within no more than 15-20 minutes deadly accurate solutions on a playable Type 212 some 10 nm + out at slow speed. It was a shock to some of our players just how reveresed the situation was with respect to AT3 or even Lwami. It makes mixing AI/playable units that much more challenging.

Such differences - hundred.
But I shall not list them all.

I think this is a mistake although I understand why you don't want to take that route. Good software comes with good documentation, and although the included weapons manual and sonar profiles are very good, a good deal of the behaviour of the mod has to be learned on the field by playing and playing. And we always discover new things. This of course takes time, and certain players accustumed to just having a changelog with all the differences with respect to DW default may be put off. And some even think the mod works badly when its just the correct behaviour because its not documented at all.
But, if you stick with it, and learn by trial and error you'll see just how big a quantum leap RA/DWX really is over the other mods.

Originally Posted by To be

The response to particular events might be great - but all I can say is that in my experience the overall employment of tactics by the AI (especially from surface vessels) in RA is significantly less challenging to defeat than the LWAMI behavior. One particular way to see this is to set up a surface fleet of (AI) warships (say, a carrier group), and place a few (AI) subs ahead of the group on barrier patrol. The ships, in my experience, do a vastly better job fighting back in LWAMI than in RA. I use both mods of course, both have their strengths. I'd be happy to send you an example replay file of the kind of test I was talking about if you'd like to see them.

You are mistaken.

The ships at all work in LWAMI not better.

The doctrines for the ships - in any way do not process their tactics.
The doctrines only operate the weapon - and that only partially.

You can in general remove the doctrine CIWS.txt and CIWSAttack.txt.
Despite of it - the ship will have the same behaviour and also will launch the weapon despite lacking the doctrines.

One word - it is manages from NavalSimEngine - but not from the doctrine completely.

There is one known tactics - shoot one missile against the surface ship.
After that - the ship will be sped up up to speed washout of the sensor controls.
And after that you shoot a passive torpedo. The ship will be 100 % killed.

With RA - such will not allow.

You can put the test mission on a forum RedRodgers as attachment archive.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by goldorak

And THIS is one hell of a big difference. AI subs with subrocs are very very deadly, we in Betasom learned the lesson.
Lada/Kilo AI subs getting within no more than 15-20 minutes deadly accurate solutions on a playable Type 212 some 10 nm + out at slow speed.

But is that realistic that a Kilo can detect a Type 212 at slow speed 10 nm away with an accurate solution?

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

But is that realistic that a Kilo can detect a Type 212 at slow speed 10 nm away with an accurate solution?

Well the Lada has a towed array so its acceptable.
As for the Kilo, while it may not have a towed array, its sonar is not completely useless. You can't track targets at very long range, but 10 nm is not out of the question.
Having an accurate solution is a matter of having the correct number of bearing lines + speed information. If the target mantains fixed speed, the autotma pinpoints the solution much faster than if you changed speed and or/course every so often.
20 minutes gives you 9 bearing lines, plus speed info is more than enough to pin down a very good solution.

In any case some things have to take into account playability yes even in a simulation. And before people start knocking down RA, Lwami in the last versions (although it was finally corrected) went completedly overboard in making the SSK practically invisibile.
So much so that Molon Labe in Lwami 3.10 reajusted the values for something more balanced.

You have to balance realism with playability.
Those that think otherwise would be better served by enlisting in a real navy and use the professional simulators.
Thats real work.