The energy thread

[Kapitan]

Thanks Kapitan for the explanation, but there are some things that still do not add up. If taxes and treaties were not followed by England

Taxes and treaties were followed however when the UK introduced the truck levy for foreign vehicles which as the EU stated is our prerogative they instantly kicked up a major fuss.
They insisted that it must apply to all UK trucks as well as foreign trucks, this was a double tax for the UK haulage industry that already pays vehicle exercise duty (which foreign trucks do not)

Note that the currently vignette (BENELUX) MAUT (Germany) and Payage (France) system gives discounts to domestic carriers but charges full rates for foreign trucks. (this is pre covid)

So in this sense the UK company pays fully rate at home and abroad while a German carrier in his home country pays around 60% rate that the UK truck would pay and 0% in the UK. (I know this because I do run UK Dutch German Danish Swedish French Belgian and Polish trucks on the European network.)

another double standard was 2003/53/EC which was the driver CPC as requested by the EU it was implemented in the UK and boy what a cost we paid we lost a lot of drivers that year, France Germany Belgium and Holland saw what happened and did not implement this agreement until recently and when they did they modified it so that only those drivers who do international routes
actually have to take it, yet UK domestic and International drivers had to do it regardless.

That seems to me like we followed the rules as requested but other countries felt it ok to skirt them or change them at will so for me a total double standard.

the Levy did end up in court and was discussed at length in the EU parliament but the referendum happened before legal action was taken and indeed before a resolution came about.

80+% of freight is moved by road in the UK rail isn't much of an option unless you want to cut commuter and passenger travel down to increase freight capacity.
In contrast the EU has a lesser road freight foot print its around 70%

You can read this article from the Parliment magazine: https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu...ew-road-charge

From a joint RHA and Return loads article I've clipped it because there's some annoying pop ups but you can read it here: https://www.returnloads.net/news/rha...u-allegations/

Richard Burnett, chief executive of the RHA stated:
‘This challenge is nonsense. The levy breaks neither the letter nor spirit of EU law. Brussels was fully briefed during its design and implementation – and continental hauliers continue to pay the levy without complaint. This is an important and successful measure that addresses an issue of real concern; to both the haulage industry and wider public. Foreign operators – now account for almost 90 percent of international trade – paid nothing at all to use our roads and the full burden of contributing towards road maintenance fell on UK-registered trucks. The levy changed that, within a framework designed by the EU itself. It is important to recognise that foreign and UK hauliers both pay the levy. Visiting hauliers pay around £40 million a year, still a modest sum and made up of a £10 per day charge for occasional visitors or a cost saving option of £1,000 a year for frequent visitors.’

He concluded stating: ‘Currently, the levy goes as far as EU law allows towards levelling the playing field and no further. The Commission should applaud the measure for making the haulage sector fairer, not attack it. If it persists in its challenge I trust that the UK government will pursue a vigorous defence.’

The HGV levy was introduced 2 years ago to ‘Even the odds’ between national and foreign drivers, ensuring every trucker pays their way while trading within UK boundaries while the EU believe it is a form of discrimination among foreign drivers, charging more than necessary. The EU were also planning to keep the allegations hidden from the UK until after the referendum considering the impact it may have on voters on June 23rd. It was also revealed in the commission’s report that there had been ‘thorough analysis’ failing to mention any evidence.

Note the UK levy is suspended to UK trucks until 2023 (were hoping for good) only foreign registered trucks now pay and they pay that when they board trains or ferries.

What is the "RHA"? I doubt 60 percent of companies was favoring brexit.

To answer this first part the RHA is the Road Haulage Association, there is another group the FTA which is Freight Transport Association both basically represent the roads and freight networks.
Sorry I should have originally put it long form its one of those things with acronyms you use them often to people who you know what they mean forgetting your in an entirely different field.

The 60% backed leave yup that is very true the RHA is the biggest representative for road freight in the UK and heres the article about it.

https://www.rha.uk.net/news/news-blo...rs-back-leave-

anyway during its time of membership in the EU, why did prices already rise that much before 2019 and corona?

Between 1998 and 2019 the price of oil went from $26 a barrel (mid 1998) To a high point of $190 per barrel in 2008 then back down to $56 in 2016 then it rose again up to $70 in 2019.

Source: https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/cru...-history-chart

Secondary source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-since-1960/

Why is that important ? trains, ships and trucks run on heavy fuel oils so we will put a charge on a rate which we call a fuel surcharge, higher the fuel the higher the % rate and that is passed on to the customer and end user.

An example London to Liverpool £500 if fuel is low the rate maybe 3% (£15) giving a total freight rate of £515, and I'm sure you can follow if I just say if fuel goes higher the FSC % goes up the highest I've ever seen it was recently at 50% in the USA (currently on 41%) Canada I am working on 42% Europe 40% and the UK were running at 35% right now.

(the reason the European rate is higher than the UK is because the trucks run through multiple countries with different fuel prices so its a blanket rate covering the whole of the EU its normally about the same typically)

They knew what was coming, and a lot just did not make it. Maybe good for the surviving rest and bigger monopolies, but not for competition

They did know it was coming however this hasn't actually caused a monopoly, if anything it has actually cracked that, the UK haulage was being swallowed up predominantly by Eastern European outfits.

When a customer calls and asks can you do a London to Milton Keynes full load for £90 you know theres something wrong with the system when that run will cost you £180/200 to actually do and break even.
The UK companies were being utterly mauled by these guys we would have that call and id say nope cant do it cheaper to run the truck empty id nearly always get oh well vostrakov or malinko transport can do it for that. (thats why you used to see them parked in enforcement areas wheel clamped because they had drivers running around the clock)

For the first time in nearly 20 years the company I work for has taken on a UK based small company which started up last year and has 7 trucks and that is a good sign because that company is not a one off either.

The UK market was being flooded by foreign companies doing loads domestically, stationing drivers in the UK sometimes for months and the UK wasn't enforcing cabotage because it got too big too quick and with the back lash going on over the UK road levy it was too much to handle.

Most companies folded up and UK drivers left as wages stagnated or plummeted and this was before the referendum because they couldn't compete with the foreign trucks and drivers which were blatantly breaking not just UK law but EU law too.

We are now seeing a return of UK drivers who previously left the industry back driving UK trucks.

On the other side France Spain and Belgium have only now just started cracking down because they have realized its cost their own domestic carriers billions of euros, and why is the crack down only happening now ? simple because these drivers were originally in the UK and now they cant do loads without being checked they have moved across the channel.

economy and the people. Skyrocketing prices in England have a lot to do with brexit, the numbers are just not exact after all this other stuff happening and blurring the picture

.

Brexit is one part of it yes absolutely and with all this other stuff I agree the numbers will be skewed.

A lot less people are buying in England, some companies have left, new companies think twice before settling in England or opening stores there.
Nothing to do with corona, and not with the war in Ukraine either.

Well looking at the IMF data just released the UK is forecast to grow 3.2% in 2022 and afterall if no one spends and no one invests the economy doesn't grow and looking at these figures for 2022 the UK isn't doing too badly and 2023 is a little light but you wont know those figures accurately until Q4 2022.

The EU as a whole 2.6%
France 2.3%
Germany 1.2%
Japan 1.7%
Italy 3.0%
Spain 4.0%
USA 2.3%
Canada 3.4%

Source https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/...date-july-2022

I agree with the latter, crude oil prices have meanwhile fallen, but the prices demanded will of course never fall that much if people are willing to pay that.

True they wont fall that much, I got off the phone earlier from the mrs and our petrol is currently $1.67.7 in Manitoba, here in Alberta where I am this evening its between $1.39.9 and $1.36.9 and a lot of that will be down to state taxes etc but that's the gist Alberta is back to around pre covid prices in AB anyways.

Just an interesting one for you Manitoba uses hydro electric generation as power production it does have some smaller gas plants for peak loads but the base load is hydro electric and the province exports power to the states Saskatchewan and Ontario.

My bills in 2020 were around $130 a month in 2021 they went up to $244 and the latest bill is $348

[mapuc]

What have EU been giving Russia since they have changed mind and are now sending 42.7 million cubic meter gas through Ukraine ?

Markus

[Skybird]

Nothing, its just Russian manouvering. The amount of gas added to the Ukrainian transit does not compensate at all for the - already reduced - lacking NordStream 1 deliveries. In the greater scheme of things it does not matter much, but allow Russia to pose as the innocent and hard trying victim of circumstances. Also, it helps to keep discussions and speculations in the West boiling.

[Jimbuna]

Russia's main gas pipeline to Europe will not reopen as planned on Saturday, adding to concerns about energy supplies this winter.

State energy firm Gazprom said it found a leak on Nord Stream 1, meaning it could be closed indefinitely.

The pipeline, which runs to Germany, has been shut for three days for what Gazprom described as maintenance work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62766867

[Jimbuna]

Members of the G7 group of leading economies have agreed to impose a price cap on Russian oil, as they seek to dent Moscow's ability to finance its war in Ukraine.

The cap, on crude oil and petroleum products, is also intended to curb soaring world energy prices, the group's finance ministers said.

It will be imposed in coordination with the European Union, though analysts say it will only have a decisive effect if other large countries follow suit.

But Russia, in anticipation of the decision, had earlier said that it would not sell oil to countries that imposed price caps.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said such a decision would lead to a "significant destabilisation of the oil markets".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62770663

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

What have EU been giving Russia since they have changed mind and are now sending 42.7 million cubic meter gas through Ukraine ?

Markus

Through the Yamal pipeline that runs through Ukraine, 41.3 million cubic meters of gas yesterday. Today it was 42.7 million cubic meters. However, that is not nearly enough to compensate for the loss of gas through Nord Stream 1. Through that pipeline flows about 33 million cubic meters of gas per day to Europe. Nothing is given Russia reroute that natural gas because of the contracts it has with European countries

[Jimbuna]

Liz Truss has promised to announce a plan to deal with soaring energy costs within a week if she becomes prime minister on Tuesday.

The Tory leadership hopeful, the favourite according to pollsters, told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg she would "act immediately" to help with bills.

But she offered no details, saying she would need time in office first in order to finalise exact proposals.

Her rival Rishi Sunak said he would target further payments at the poorest.

One of the two contenders will be announced as the next Tory leader on Monday, and will replace Boris Johnson in Downing Street the next day.

They have come under pressure to spell out how they would protect households with rising bills, as well as give help to businesses, which are not covered by the domestic price cap.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62786065

[mapuc]

This article fits both here and in our Ukraine thread

Russia will not resume gas supplies to Europe until sanctions lifted, says Moscow

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-says-moscow

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Liz Truss has promised to announce a plan to deal with soaring energy costs within a week if she becomes prime minister on Tuesday.

The Tory leadership hopeful, the favourite according to pollsters, told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg she would "act immediately" to help with bills.

But she offered no details, saying she would need time in office first in order to finalise exact proposals.

Her rival Rishi Sunak said he would target further payments at the poorest.

One of the two contenders will be announced as the next Tory leader on Monday, and will replace Boris Johnson in Downing Street the next day.

They have come under pressure to spell out how they would protect households with rising bills, as well as give help to businesses, which are not covered by the domestic price cap.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62786065

Russia’s reaction to Liz Truss becoming the next PM, they are not happy to say the least.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This article fits both here and in our Ukraine thread



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-says-moscow

Markus

Because it can not win on the front, the Kremlin’s energy weapon is being deployed on the same day the last reactor at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was taken offline also disconnected Kakhovka hydropower plant.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Because it can not win on the front, the Kremlin’s energy weapon is being deployed on the same day the last reactor at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant was taken offline.

As someone wrote Russia is now in a full scale gas war with the West

(will try to remember where I read it)

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

As someone wrote Russia is now in a full scale gas war with the West

(will try to remember where I read it)

Markus

Ukraine exports its electricity to Moldova, Romania, Slovakia, Poland and is ready to expand exports to Germany do not know it can now the Zaporizhzhia facility is offline.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Ukraine exports its electricity to Moldova, Romania, Slovakia, Poland and is ready to expand exports to Germany do not know it can now the Zaporizhzhia facility is offline.

Found it

https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/stat...43611932381184

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

This article fits both here and in our Ukraine thread



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ed-says-moscow

Markus

I think the E.U. can adapt and eventually overcome much sooner than Russia can adapt to the loss of revenue. As Perun put it, by cutting of gas to the E.U. Russia just lost the one and only piece of real leverage they ever had.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I think the E.U. can adapt and eventually overcome much sooner than Russia can adapt to the loss of revenue. As Perun put it, by cutting of gas to the E.U. Russia just lost the one and only piece of real leverage they ever had.

I dunno about that, Germany (the worst effected and lets face it, Germany basically IS the EU.) Has a hell of alot of infastructure to get in place before they can go Russian Gas free. And if they stick to their guns on renewables, its going to be decades before they can be energy self reliant.
They really screwed themselves this time.