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Old 04-09-2019, 02:11 PM   #1
Mycaelis
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Default Is there, or will there ever be any time compression?

My friend and I love the concept of this game, but we honestly don't have a huge amount of time spare to play every night.
We've looked in the options, so assuming there isn't a function like this at the moment.

With the absence of a 'save' function, is there a possibility for some time compression, say 2x - 8x?
Maybe only available when you are surfaced with diesel engines running.

Is this something that is planned, or might be looked at in the future?
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Old 04-09-2019, 02:32 PM   #2
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The problem with time compression is how to handle a wolfpack. The ability to lock a lobby to a single sub should make it possible though, and would open up the feasibility of a silent hunter style coop dynamic campaign/career. Something im actually more interested in than wolfpack operations.

Maybe during this campaign, sending convoy reports opens up the possibility of a public event, so that any coop'd uboats that are near that location on the map could join in.
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Old 04-09-2019, 04:48 PM   #3
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:15 PM   #4
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Well i Think, if it were to be implemented the captain of the u-boot should be the one with the "time controls".
And if there are multiple subs, maybe let the captains "Vote". If one captain iniciates it, the rest of them can vote yes or no and any captain should be able to stop it.
But i have no idea right now how you would prevent trolling. Like some random dude just joining an empty uboot and ****ing with everyone by preventing/stopping the time compression.

For that maybe the lobby leader would need admin rights to kick/ban other players. Maybe the lobby leader should also be able to add/transfer his admin rights to other trustworthy players.
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:22 PM   #5
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This is a 'session' based game. It's not intended to be a campaign, with save states etc.

So no time compression.

It's designed, for when you and friends (hopefully) get time - 20mins to 2 hours+ to play a single mission and try and win.

Just like Star Trek Bridge Crew and Left 4 Dead etc etc etc.

It's pretty much perfect as it is, for what it is.

The problem of time compression over networked clients, Co-Op, and then multiple subs, and an lobby system where people just jump in means you're NEVER going to get time compression, because it's too difficult (not impossible) to implement correctly and safely for it to be worth even attempting.

You need to have time to play, if you don't and have to wait till the weekend, then play with what time you have or wait.

Patience is key to this game, its concept and life overall. Sadly it's no longer taught...
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Old 04-09-2019, 05:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
This is a 'session' based game. It's not intended to be a campaign, with save states etc.

So no time compression.

It's designed, for when you and friends (hopefully) get time - 20mins to 2 hours+ to play a single mission and try and win.

[...]
Well, i kind of agree with you, but at the same time i dont.

You see, the problem is, me and a friend, we already had a few games more than 4-5 hours long... and you just cant find the time to do something like that really often. especially when you cant pause or safe.

Just finding the convoy can take up to 30mins. Then we have to get their course and speed, and overtake them out of sight until we can dive into their path. that again will take up to an hour. And there is absolutly no way to be sure that you will sink enough ships in your first run.

So for me, a mission is at least 2 hours, probably way more when i want to do it perfectly. but if i could jump, or speed up, these extremly long parts of overtaking and lying in wait, well i guess that would be a great improvement for many people.

Or maybe safegames for sessions. I really dont see any reason against saving a session with your friends and continuing it later.


AFAIK they confirmed that there will be special missions and stuff later in development. if these are long and complicated enough i think you should be able to save your game if you want to.

Some people already asked to start and finish their missions in a port. well that wouldnt really make these missions any shorter


So i guess for me, i would be really okay with time compression and i am hoping for savegames to be implemented.
But that doesnt make you wrong in the regard that you still need to take a few hours (with friends) for every session.

Oh and btw, i dont think its "too" complicated to implement. But TBH i have no idea. Maybe the devs can shed some light on this?
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Old 04-09-2019, 06:07 PM   #7
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I'm never been a network dev, but I have worked as a programmer for a AAA games studio, and done networking code and stuff.

This would be extremely hard to implement. In fact there are no other MP games that have time compression where people can join in mid session (AFAIK) because - like I said - whilst not impossible, it's very, very VERY hard to do and do well enough to be stable.

There's just no call for the tremendous amount of work, a single feature would require. And if that loses 100 players overall, on a niche game, I suspect no-one would worry too much.

We've got Uboat coming out in just days, Sh3 and 5 are still playable, so if you want saves, port and ocean crossing transits - you've got your choice.

If you want to have PVP with save games, Dangerous Waters can scratch that itch.

This game is about co-op first person working of a pretty realistic sub over a short single mission.

That's its unique selling point and differentiator.


No one game can or SHOULD even try to be everything to everyone. So knowing there is plenty of choice, if this isn't a good fit, or something you can only enjoy when you have the time, then that's good enough. I don't like playing with randoms. I don't like players with no patience or discipline and who try to take over everyones station and all want to be giving orders. So I can only play this game when likeminded players are found and available.

But I'm not asking, expecting. or even wanting the game to change to accommodate that.

You can't make every square peg fit a round hole without destroying the square peg.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:52 PM   #8
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Granted, I'm not a programmer. But I see no reason why save-game states cannot be implemented to continue at a later time. Just like the game starts in a state in which you spawn. So should it also be able to fix a new state into a file. Or at least, that state that the lobby owner's server was aware of. Clients states are not as important. At the continuation of a session the game state would first be synced to all participants as needed. I know Minecraft and Space Engineer servers can make backups of the world, so why not Wolfpack? I'm sure there are other examples too.

Time compression or acceleration would indeed be very complicated to achieve in multiplayer environments. Realtime is hard enough already to deal with de-syncs.

Perhaps a cross-over of realtime and turn-based game concepts could work, where time compression would be more like time-jumps. Each captain would vote for a time period to bridge a dull moment, but the shortest would win. Then the Uboats and convoy(member) positions and states get projected into the future. With minimal AI to check for changes in events. If it so happens that a ship get's too close or some other (state-) trigger fires in that period then the time jump could be shortened. But nobody is told about it. Only watching a clock would give you the notion. An NPC noticing you in range might have already acted upon it. And unknowingly to you called in support, or sent a shell over to you itself. While you are still in the process of learning the new status quo as you wake up. And so you all have to deal with the consequences of deciding on taking a nap. Tough luck! Then you should have voted for a shorter time jump or stayed in realtime and pay attention.

But I immediately agree that this would seriously undermine the immersion factor, going in and out of realtime. And could still be a very complicated concept to work out for a 2 man team. (of which one is doing most of the programming as far as I heard) So yeah, I expect this to remain a dream for a long time. But I so much want a merge of SH3 and Wolfpack. (And SH5 doesn't cut it)
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Old 04-09-2019, 10:00 PM   #9
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I agree, save states could be done - with some limitations.

What happens if you saved with only 2 subs engaging, and when you restart a 3rd sub wants to play? Where should that spawn? What would be fair / fairest.

I can see this working better in a 'private' lobby with only one sub - but again, if you start a mission with multiple subs, and then save and restart and only one sub can play, what happens to the rest? What if those players want to play halfway through the 2nd game?

What non programmers don't ever think about is all these corner cases, it's not just the complication of the code, but all the what if's - add to that co-op and THEN networked session gameplay and it becomes a huge problem.

Then alternately you have people who will use it to cheat? When a sub is going to be damaged, save game, restart and pick a different sub and take over in a better 'spawn' position. That's not cool.

So maybe saves, but it would have to be limited in some way because of the all the networking and spawning complications.

But I agree, time compression, not a chance.

The only caveat is if (and I hope they won't) they dumb it down and you always spawn right on top of a convoy; to me that's just turned the game into target practice. The hunt and intercept is half the fun. Even if they made a Captain only 'option' to ask the crew(s) if they want to 'time jump' to the approach point, then the people who vote no will only end up getting kicked. That's not right either. And Pisces, your time jump selection, that idea doesn't work either, I don't want to play a game where someone with no patience jumps us to the point where we've been detected and don't know about it but the end will always be the same.

This is a game about patience and being cautious. Time Jumps, especially as you described it, takes all that away.

As I said to someone else; If you're really bored for that 20mins, then use it to train someone on a station, practice dive and surface drills - because I can tell you, virtually nobody I've played with knows what they're doing or will stick to their own stations!. Run practice approaches on the map - get everyone involved. There is so much to do - aside from keeping an eye out for real contacts, and aircraft when they come etc etc etc that 20mins is going to fly by.

So no, I don't have the time and energy to play WOW - doesn't mean I keep asking for them the change the game into something that I do have the time and energy for; I'm just grown up enough to say "It's not the game for me" and move on.

Last edited by Elphaba; 04-09-2019 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:48 AM   #10
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Assuming a lobby can be limited to a single sub, time compression is absolutely possible and relatively straightforward to implement in a multiplayer game such as Wolfpack.

In fact, from the perspective of the game, normal time doesn't even exist, so it can run at any (reasonable) pace just as well. All it takes to "speed up time" by e.g. a factor of 2 compared to "normal" is to make all external processes and player actions take half the time that they currently take. It's not rocket science and the primary reason why you don't see many multiplayer titles speed up time is because it's mechanically inappropriate in most contexts - not because it's inherently difficult to do.

Having said that, there's a nuance. In order for time compression to be possible, especially in a multiplayer environment, the game needs to be written with a little forethought in mind to actually be able to implement time variability later. I obviously have no clue if the developers of Wolfpack predicted this possibility or not.
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Old 04-10-2019, 04:33 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I'm never been a network dev, but I have worked as a programmer for a AAA games studio, and done networking code and stuff.

This would be extremely hard to implement. In fact there are no other MP games that have time compression where people can join in mid session (AFAIK) because - like I said - whilst not impossible, it's very, very VERY hard to do and do well enough to be stable.

There's just no call for the tremendous amount of work, a single feature would require. And if that loses 100 players overall, on a niche game, I suspect no-one would worry too much.

We've got Uboat coming out in just days, Sh3 and 5 are still playable, so if you want saves, port and ocean crossing transits - you've got your choice.

If you want to have PVP with save games, Dangerous Waters can scratch that itch.

This game is about co-op first person working of a pretty realistic sub over a short single mission.

That's its unique selling point and differentiator.


No one game can or SHOULD even try to be everything to everyone. So knowing there is plenty of choice, if this isn't a good fit, or something you can only enjoy when you have the time, then that's good enough. I don't like playing with randoms. I don't like players with no patience or discipline and who try to take over everyones station and all want to be giving orders. So I can only play this game when likeminded players are found and available.

But I'm not asking, expecting. or even wanting the game to change to accommodate that.

You can't make every square peg fit a round hole without destroying the square peg.
The one game (and only one) that I know about that does allow vote-based time compression in a persistent multiplayer campaign would be Falcon 4.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:03 AM   #12
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And getting that to work with the dynamic campaign and all the clients was not an easy thing.

This game hasn't even got it's first patch yet. There's an entire roadmap of stuff to come, and people think they should implement such a large and foundational change because they want to get right to the shooting? If I wanted to mindlessly shoot things, I'd play COD.

I'd vote they stick to their vision (it's been remarkable and unique so far) and continue with the roadmap.

Bear in mind too, it's only one person writing all this code. You're putting an awful lot on one guy who's already been working 24/7 for the last 4 years.
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Old 04-10-2019, 07:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
And getting that to work with the dynamic campaign and all the clients was not an easy thing.
I agree completely; Falcon was in development for I forget, 10 years or so, and even then was rushed out the door with numerous issues before the publisher fired the development team just before Christmas 98.

And people wonder why there's not been another sim with a dynamic campaign quite like Falcon's (but finally, let's see what ED come up with for DCS because they're keeping the details quite hush hush at the moment).

FWIW, I still think it's a fair question from the OP, but technically to implement, it would open up a pandora's box.
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Old 04-10-2019, 11:49 AM   #14
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I don't see a downside to having save games; maybe I'm missing something. I disagree with Elphaba about cheating being an issue. As long as it doesn't affect the MP community, who cares? The same reasons lack of time compression is okay (i.e. this is a hardcore niche simulator), I don't think we need to worry about it much.


That said, my own opinion is this is low priority. You can blow through the initial convoy seeking part once you've done it a few times.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post

There's just no call for the tremendous amount of work, a single feature would require.
Well, obviously there is a call for that, otherwise this thread would not be here and we would not be discussing this But i will agree, its not urgent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
We've got Uboat coming out in just days, Sh3 and 5 are still playable, so if you want saves, port and ocean crossing transits - you've got your choice.

If you want to have PVP with save games, Dangerous Waters can scratch that itch.

This game is about co-op first person working of a pretty realistic sub over a short single mission.

That's its unique selling point and differentiator.
Not having a specific feature should not make a game unique or be its selling point. And even if so, when the community likes ur game but would like it even more with one (optional, cause noone forces you to use safegames) feature, why shouldnt they implement it?
And sure, there are these games that you listed. but they all are completly diffrent from what we have here. I dont see Savegames (or Time acceleration) changing that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I don't like playing with randoms. I don't like players with no patience or discipline and who try to take over everyones station and all want to be giving orders. So I can only play this game when likeminded players are found and available.

But I'm not asking, expecting. or even wanting the game to change to accommodate that.
Well thats your way to play it. And i have my way to play it. There no "right" or "wrong" way to play, as long as you and the people you are playing with are having fun.
But just because you dont need feature X, why shouldnt the people who want or need it get it?

I too enjoy Playing with my friends, where everyone knows what he has to do, and does a good job. And i would like it even more if we could begin a campaign this evening, and finish it over the course of a few days or weeks. maybe even with ports and limited Diesel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
I agree, save states could be done - with some limitations.

What happens if you saved with only 2 subs engaging, and when you restart a 3rd sub wants to play? Where should that spawn? What would be fair / fairest.

I can see this working better in a 'private' lobby with only one sub - but again, if you start a mission with multiple subs, and then save and restart and only one sub can play, what happens to the rest? What if those players want to play halfway through the 2nd game?

So maybe saves, but it would have to be limited in some way because of the all the networking and spawning complications.
Of course there are these problems to overcome, but you have these in every aspect of the game. not just community requested features. And there could be simple solutions to some of these. Maybe not being allowed to safe while closer than 1000m to an enemy ship, or while they are in search mode. If the devs want, they will figure something out, maybe with the help and ideas of the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
But I agree, time compression, not a chance.
After reading your and Pisces comments i guess i agree with you on this one for now. Though i still think it would be possible, its not worth the effort and time this would take at this point in development. Still i think this would be a nice feature to fasten up some of the longer journeys in a mission.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
The only caveat is if (and I hope they won't) they dumb it down and you always spawn right on top of a convoy; to me that's just turned the game into target practice. The hunt and intercept is half the fun. [...]
This is a game about patience and being cautious. Time Jumps, especially as you described it, takes all that away.
Completly agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
So no, I don't have the time and energy to play WOW - doesn't mean I keep asking for them the change the game into something that I do have the time and energy for; I'm just grown up enough to say "It's not the game for me" and move on.
noone here wants to change the core game in any way. they just want the option to play "more" of it in their limited free time. Just because i like something doesnt mean i cant change anything to make it even better. And like i said before, noone can force a lobby to use Savegames (or Time compression, but we already kind of ruled that out).


Quote:
Originally Posted by tortuga power View Post
I don't see a downside to having save games; maybe I'm missing something. I disagree with Elphaba about cheating being an issue. As long as it doesn't affect the MP community, who cares? The same reasons lack of time compression is okay (i.e. this is a hardcore niche simulator), I don't think we need to worry about it much.


That said, my own opinion is this is low priority. You can blow through the initial convoy seeking part once you've done it a few times.
Agreed. Safe games can wait. Its no urgent feature. But still it would be a nice to have and the community can always ask for things they would like. What the devs do in the end with community wishes and suggetions is completly up to them.

As long as a part of the active community wants something, i wouldnt just put it off the table because not everone needs or wants it. you can always make things optional. And for that "too hard to implement" Argument, i would wait for the devs to say something about that. Maybe they already considered this before and have an easy answer for this discussion, maybe they even want that feature themselfs in the long run.
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