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Old 09-11-2019, 06:45 AM   #10936
JU_88
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Originally Posted by STEED View Post
Oh goodie let me have ago....

a) True too a point, now you made be wondering why I said that after all I voted leave. In my case when the EEC morphed into the EU this went way belong what it was meant to be. I paid little notice of the reforendrum as my mind was already made up but if I did I would not have voted.

a) Is true to a point for both sides, way too many die hard Brexiteers and Remainers alike, seem to understand shockingly little about the EU when pressed on it beyond the robotic group fanboyism of waving a union jack or painting their face blue. Admittedly its not simple institution that can be easily understood.

I sense its more of a case of what it represents, and people picked a side based on that.

People who are overly progressive and keen on unions and collectives, View barriers and borders between nations as a hindrance to our advancement, have a glossy view of others cultures but a selectively negative view of their own - Boom you're a remainer.

People who are more nationalist and keen on the preservation of their own culture and traditions, see the necessity in having borders and boundaries, have selectively glossy view of their own culture and either a negative or just indifferent view of others. - Boom, Brexiteer.

Nothing really wrong with either of those stand points, but that's how many will have very simply and largely emotionally aligned them selves with out any real analysis of what it is exactly we are remaining in or leaving behind.
Those were the easy but not very intelligent ways or picking a side in the Brexit debate. its not that those people are stupid, they might be brilliant in other ways and just have other things they would rather focus their time and energy on.

but if we going to split hairs on why 'the people' collectively choose what they choose and question the legitimacy of their decisions, there may as well never be another peoples referendum or even an election ever again. If you are going to be democratic you must accept peoples flaws and ignorance. Or you just embrace a dictatorship run by elites who will decide everything for you.
if you like democracy, you have to still like it even when it doesn't go your way.

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Old 09-11-2019, 07:00 AM   #10937
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Great post Francis and one which confirms to me why I'm a Brexiteer.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:12 AM   #10938
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At the core this whole rotten mess lays at the shed door of Dodgy Dave who gave us the referendum and after losing what did he do? He took the easy road out stepped down as PM and MP, now rewriting history in his shed some where in England.

Maybot was a remainer and a internal control freak while bowing down to the EU and not fighting for the UK. She caved in like a pack of cards. Bojo has taken bad advice from psycho Dominick and now has paid the price.

Parliament has failed and all of them should be swept away time for a change and cut the rotten deadwood away.

As for the bigger picture Europe would be better off without the EU.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:25 AM   #10939
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Surprised Gideon didn't get a mention.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:27 AM   #10940
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Originally Posted by Jimbuna View Post
Surprised Gideon didn't get a mention.
He was busy in his other three or four jobs at the time. I hear he's up to around seven or eight now, do I hear ten?
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:47 AM   #10941
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Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Scottish court declares prorogation unlawful.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855
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Originally Posted by Jimbuna View Post
I'm not sure what impact the judgement will have on the current suspension of Parliament but the government said it will appeal against the ruling to the Supreme Court in London.
This is where an arguable flaw with the 1707 act of Union between England and Scotland rears it's head.

One of the stipulations was that the Scottish Legal System would remain separate from England's (likewise the same applied to the the Church of Scotland) otherwise it's highly likely that the Scottish social elite would not have agreed to the Union with England.

That the UK has three distinct legal systems, that for England and Wales, the Scottish one and one for Northern Ireland isn't well known, even within this country. How they interact with each other within the whole UK legal system has, as far as I'm aware, never been set in stone.

You also have another problem in that the pro-UK side in Scottish politics has always sold the idea that the UK is a Union of equals, ergo, Scotland, a nation of 5 million, is the equal of England, a nation of 55 million. Naturally, England, where the concept of the individual is ingrained culturally, has difficulty accepting this concept when it becomes aware of it. Most English people seem to automatically interpret such an idea as meaning that one Scot equals ten Englishmen and resent it accordingly. For Scots, where, traditionally, the group or community rates higher than the individual, this is interpreted simply as one community being the equal of another, regardless of the size disparity.

This is where EU membership for Scotland is attractive for it's supporters - all nations, regardless of size are (nominally) treated as having an equal voice, hence each country has a veto. In comparison, the UK isn't set up that way. It, is confusingly, both a single Nation and a Union of nations at the same time. This wasn't a problem when you had a single government (Westminster) but New Labour's devolution drive for the non-English parts of the UK upset and broke the balance that existed previously. Even moreso as England itself doesn't have a single voice of it's own.

Mike.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:56 AM   #10942
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Originally Posted by MGR1 View Post

That the UK has three distinct legal systems, that for England and Wales, the Scottish one and one for Northern Ireland isn't well known, even within this country. How they interact with each other within the whole UK legal system has, as far as I'm aware, never been set in stone.
Good point Mike, I remember during my time as Police Officer, my authority was only valid in England and Wales.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:09 AM   #10943
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Good point Mike, I remember during my time as Police Officer, my authority was only valid in England and Wales.
Likewise when I had a Personal Alcohol Licence (I was a Store Trainer), mine was only valid in Scotland.

It's interesting to see some of the comment's for Henry Hill's article of the legal ruling: LINK. Ignorance of the subtlety of what constitutes the UK legal system appears widespread amongst the Tory Party's Hard Right.

Lord Ashcroft's polling for Northern Ireland:

Lord Ashcroft: My Northern Ireland polling. Six out of ten voters there accept the backstop. But only one in five Unionists do so.

No doubt uncomfortable reading for the DUP, but it also highlights the continuing effects of religious sectarianism on NI political process.

Mike.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:03 AM   #10944
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The Government is appealing, and the Supreme Court may yet row in behind the English courts and avert any immediate crisis. But even if so, this is a battlefield we shall undoubtedly return to – whatever happens with Brexit.
I expect the Supreme Court to do as above but whatever happens next is anyone's guess.

Either way....what an almighty mess.
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:37 AM   #10945
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Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
Scottish court declares prorogation unlawful.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49661855
That decision shows the whole problem with Courts trying to second guess political decisions.

The Court rules that the advice the PM gave was unlawful, but under the UK Constitution, the PM has no power, he only advises the Queen who has all the powers, but is obliged to follow the PM's advice.

For the order to have any teeth, the Court would have to order the Queen to recall Parliament, but the Courts are deemed to be an extension of the Crown, do they have the power to force the Queen to take a political decision?

Can the Court "order" the PM to advise the Queen to recall Parliament? Would that be legal under the UK Constitution?

It is a political minefield, no doubt why the Court said the advice was "unlawful", but ordered no remedy.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:05 PM   #10946
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Boris Johnson rejects Nigel Farage's offer of non-aggression pact at next general election
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...ction-11807175

Way to go to loose more votes Bojo who told you to say no to Nigel, psycho Dominick?

Meanwhile this....

Quote:
Operation Yellowhammer: Government no-deal Brexit documents released
https://news.sky.com/story/operation...eased-11807339
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:04 PM   #10947
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Originally Posted by JU_88 View Post
[…]
You are working off the assumption - and rather tired Pro remain arguments that:,
a) Brexiteers didn't know what they voted for (too stupid)
b) they were overwhelmingly taken in by Ukip propaganda - (yet Ukip got no where in the post referendum GE)
c) No deal leave will be a massive sky falling in disaster that will punish many who voted for it.

Tell me how you know there is any truth to a) b) and c) because there is no evidence to support that any of it that true or not, what you are repeating is Remainer speculation.
a) I admit i have no idea what brexiters think now, and i refuse to call them brexiteers, because musketeers or buccaneers are a completely different breed, something brexiters surely have not.

They have been lied to, they believed it, they are too proud to admit that after having tons of evidence for the lies being sold to them, and they are turning at least England into a chaos (if Scotland and/or Ireland have the guts to leave the 'UK')

b) Ukip propaganda and the brexit project fear against immigrants (anyone remembers Farage's big poster?) sure influenced them, whether "UKIP went somewhere" or not. And UKIP, Farage and some others certainly knew how to spread propaganda of the lowest sort, and it hit home. In a way i would never have believed, this was a genuine surprise for me.

c) I do believe that brexit will damage the UK or at least England (if the rest breaks away), it is not only Cameron's papers published after the referendum (lmao) but also what is described in new publications, or even in Johnson's "Operation Yellowhammer" no deal scenario just posted by Steed. Really, what will they think of next, operation chastise again, The Blitz? Is there any non-war language left? Or is "yellowhammer" Johnson's frozen pee?

Yes there are tons of evidence of lies on the benefits of brexit, and i could prove it just by quoting pages from this thread, but all has been said about that ages ago. I admit i am losing my patience. It is obviously a nationalist Thing, it is clearly not about economy. And it defies all of what people like Cecil Lewis hoped and wrote for more than hundred years ago.

*(quote from link below) "The only positive is that Brexit has at last broken the political and social hegemony that kept our population subdued and somewhat apathetic. They are no longer apathetic, and their rage has become unbearable to the Westminster political and media chattering classes. They simply do not know what to do with this rage: they are used to being left in peace as they cause havoc in people’s lives. Now they are being challenged on what they do, and what they say."
Alright, but then.. Johnson???

This article* https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/...an-blame-them/ made me understand the rage and fury of the "lower classes" as they are still being identified in England or so it seems, but even when i understand frustration and the urge to change the existing political landscape, which has ignored them for ages, at all cost, why for heaven's sake do they think that just of all leaving the EU will help them? It was just of all the EU that introduced better conditions for working classes, one of the major reasons for Right wingers like Rees-Mogg to get away from such ideas asap.

I have no idea what will be better in England (or the UK if it holds) after a brexit, you can tell me, and we will see.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:28 PM   #10948
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Its so strange - or not strange at all - that you accuse Brexiteers of this and that dialectical or political trick and practice - and when the same ways are being practiced on behalf of pro-EU issues and interests, you have nothing to complain about. Double standards. But why not, if not even the EU commission has problems with double standards, and confessing to cheatign and misleading.



You do not complain about cheap tricks. They are fully acceptable to you - as long as not being used against what you want, but are beign used in favour of what you want.



Quite some of the things you complain about, by now are known by more people in the UK than were known three years ago. And still: pro-Brexit is strong in opinion shares, if there were a new referendum, it is anything but certain that anti-Brexiteers would now collect a majority. You should wonder why that is so. And come to the conclusion that your premisses and factors that you tend to weigh heavily, maybe are not as important for many Brits as you think. And from here you maybe should reach for a conclusion that there are interests on their mind that have little to do with your motives you assume they have.



Germans are always knowing so damn well what motives, interests and morals other people and countries should have. A nerve-killing deformation of a deeply servile, state-believing national character. Maybe explainable after Prussia and two world wars. But not excusable.
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Old 09-11-2019, 04:42 PM   #10949
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a) I admit i have no idea what brexiters think now, and i refuse to call them brexiteers, because musketeers or buccaneers are a completely different breed, something brexiters surely have not.

They have been lied to, they believed it, they are too proud to admit that after having tons of evidence for the lies being sold to them, and they are turning at least England into a chaos (if Scotland and/or Ireland have the guts to leave the 'UK')

b) Ukip propaganda and the brexit project fear against immigrants (anyone remembers Farage's big poster?) sure influenced them, whether "UKIP went somewhere" or not. And UKIP, Farage and some others certainly knew how to spread propaganda of the lowest sort, and it hit home. In a way i would never have believed, this was a genuine surprise for me.

c) I do believe that brexit will damage the UK or at least England (if the rest breaks away), it is not only Cameron's papers published after the referendum (lmao) but also what is described in new publications, or even in Johnson's "Operation Yellowhammer" no deal scenario just posted by Steed. Really, what will they think of next, operation chastise again, The Blitz? Is there any non-war language left? Or is "yellowhammer" Johnson's frozen pee?

Yes there are tons of evidence of lies on the benefits of brexit, and i could prove it just by quoting pages from this thread, but all has been said about that ages ago. I admit i am losing my patience. It is obviously a nationalist Thing, it is clearly not about economy. And it defies all of what people like Cecil Lewis hoped and wrote for more than hundred years ago.

I have no idea what will be better in England (or the UK if it holds) after a brexit, you can tell me, and we will see.

The Leave and Remain campaigns were so bad in places, I almost didn't vote at all.
The leavers have been mislead in part, as likely have remainers, we will see if the sky falls in as they predicted, i guess.

but i wont say 'lied to' because its unproven, we still don't have an outcome and who's to say that those who 'lied' didn't believe it them selves? false conviction is not the same as lying - another thing you and nobody else can really prove.
the Leave poster and NHS claim were propaganda, as are claims of empty supermarkets, and chlorinated chicken. Those kinds of stunts and claims only add to mess of confusion and divert peoples attention away from the more sensible points and principles. Would I use those examples to undermine a persons reasons for wanting to leave or remain? No - not unless they were attempting to press those exact points as valid reasons for there choice.

My bottom line for why i lean on the leave side is simple, our current democratic system free from the EU increases our right to self determination (as a people), while being an EU member restricts it.
I prefer to be ruled by electable democrats (and their lobbyist mates), and not unelectable bureaucrats (and their lobbyist mates). Sorry I'd just rather not take the chance with politicians who are virtually accountable to no one.


None of us know what will happen in the immediate aftermath or ten years down the line, after a no deal or a deal. we are all hedging bets on what we think will happen or what we hope will happen, nothing more.
And you are no exception.

I highly doubt you can prove anything by 'quoting from this thread'.
Its likely what you have is the same as the rest of us, speculation, links to media hit pieces that make various accusations (written by people no more honest than those they have in their cross hairs), and a certain amount of faith in your own narrative.
What we believe we we know and what we actually know are often not the same thing.

Only time will tell if you or I were right or not. So yes - we'll see indeed.

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Old 09-11-2019, 06:42 PM   #10950
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Good reading JU_88
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