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Old 09-17-18, 04:19 PM   #5371
vienna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat View Post
not surprised you agree with him, Old man.

Ben Sasse is a dead man walking, either he has already decided not to run again in 2020 or he will be beaten in the primary. With the iron grip that Trump has on the GOP, those that cross him are pushed out like Corker or Flake.

of course as you get closer to 2020 you may see that Sasse all of a sudden starts to see new qualities in Trump and his agenda...

p.s. - notice that despite all his anti-Trump rhetoric, he is still a solid yes vote on Kavanaugh.
A couple of things:

Don't equate respect with or mistake it for total agreement with an individual, group, or idea; it is very possible to respect someone without necessarily being in total agreement; I respect anyone who appears to have given their stance considered, mature thought and who is not mindlessly regurgitating a party line or exhibiting lemming behavior. Ben Sasse, like Barry Goldwater and John McCain before him, is his own person and I say more power to him...

Your statement about Sasse making an about face regarding Trump in Sasse's 2020 reelection bid is a bit laughable. First, there is no guarantee Trump will be around, politically, in 2020 nor that Trump will have any serious influence if he is still in office. Things have steadily gone downhill for Trump and continues to get worse; in 2020, Trump would be not an asset, but a liability. Then there is the matter of Sasse's own political stature in his home state; Sasse won his seat in 2014 by defeating the DEM candidate in Nebraska with a total of 64.4% of the vote to the DEMs 31.5%, a whopping margin of 32.9%, a very, very substantial victory. Sasse really doesn't need Trump; in truth, to keep Nebraska in the GOP fold, the GOP and Trump will be more in need of Sasse...

The yes vote for Kavanaugh is just one and, most likely not the deciding one, so it is what it is; besides, with the way things are going for this SCOTUS nomination, the GOP and Trump should be grateful for the vote all...


Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
"Best people"?

He was fired after just 2 months and long before the election. What he's been convicted of has nothing to do with Trump or the 2016 Presidential campaign.

This is what, like round 100 for the Trump haters? You should know by now that it is just going to be another dry well.

Hmm, the old Trumpian "Well, he was not a very important part of my circle..." deflection. Let's see about Manafort and his connection to Trump:


From Wikipedia --


Quote:
...

Chairman of Donald Trump's 2016 campaign

In February 2016, Manafort approached Donald Trump through a mutual friend, Thomas J. Barrack Jr. He pointed out his experience advising presidential campaigns in the United States and around the world, described himself as an outsider not connected to the Washington establishment, and offered to work without salary. In March 2016, he joined Trump's presidential campaign to take the lead in getting commitments from convention delegates. On June 20, 2016, Trump fired campaign manager Corey Lewandowski and promoted Manafort to the position. Manafort gained control of the daily operations of the campaign as well as an expanded $20 million budget, hiring decisions, advertising, and media strategy Like most hires in the Trump campaign, Manafort was not vetted.

On June 9, 2016, Manafort, Donald Trump Jr., and Jared Kushner were participants in a meeting with Russian attorney Natalia Veselnitskaya and several others at Trump Tower. A British music agent, saying he was acting on behalf of Emin Agalarov and the Russian government, had told Trump Jr. that he could obtain damaging information on Hillary Clinton if he met with a lawyer connected to the Kremlin. At first, Trump Jr. said the meeting had been primarily about the Russian ban on international adoptions (in response to the Magnitsky Act) and mentioned nothing about Mrs. Clinton; he later said the offer of information about Clinton had been a pretext to conceal Veselnitskaya's real agenda.

In August 2016, Manafort's connections to former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his pro-Russian Party of Regions drew national attention in the US, where it was reported that Manafort may have received $12.7 million in off-the-books funds from the Party of Regions.

On August 17, 2016, Donald Trump received his first security briefing. The same day, August 17, Trump shook up his campaign organization in a way that appeared to minimize Manafort's role. It was reported that members of Trump's family, particularly Jared Kushner who had originally been a strong backer of Manafort, had become uneasy about his Russian connections and suspected that he had not been forthright about them. Manafort stated in an internal staff memorandum that he would "remain the campaign chairman and chief strategist, providing the big-picture, long-range campaign vision". However, two days later, Trump announced his acceptance of Manafort's resignation from the campaign after Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway took on senior leadership roles within that campaign.

Upon Manafort's resignation as campaign chairman, Newt Gingrich stated, "nobody should underestimate how much Paul Manafort did to really help get this campaign to where it is right now." Gingrich later added that, for the Trump administration, "It makes perfect sense for them to distance themselves from somebody who apparently didn't tell them what he was doing."
...
BY God, Agust is right: by the above description, all Manfort did was go on coffee (or covfefe) runs...

Here's a good timeline of Trump's connections to Manafort (and their connection to some others in the Trump circle)...

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...ump_world.html

It should be noted that Manafort and Trump had continued contact after Manafort resigned as Trump's Campaign Manager and that Trump's legal team and Manafort's legal team had an information sharing agreement (now voided by Manafort's plea agreement) all during the time after the appointment of Mueller as Special Counsel, you know, kinda of like collusion regarding the SC's investigation...


Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
...

We'll see but the plea deal was for, in his lawyers words: "conduct that dates back many years", ie long before his involvement with the Trump or the campaign. I'm betting that this will be just another disappointment in a long line of them for the Trump Haters.

The plea deal also requires Manafort to testify, under oath, and provide any supporting evidence connected with the testimony, on any and all matters either prior to his tenure with Trump, during his Tenure, or after. The very fact he was a participant, along with Trump Jr. and Trump's son-in-law Kushner, in the Trump Tower meeting shows he was much more than a sideline benchwarmer on the Trump team and connects the Trump team to, and on its face, act of criminal conspiracy with a foreign power that actually does fall under the purview of Mueller's investigation. Considering that Mueller has gotten indictments on about a couple of dozen subjects of the probe, has actually gotten a conviction against the one hold out (Manafort) who, until last Friday wouldn't take a plea, and has actually gotten guilty pleas against about 8 of those involved in the Trump circle, I would safely venture a guess the one who is really disappointed is President Chump:


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...nts-grand-jury


Yes, most likely very, very disappointed...


... and very scared. Mueller has run a surprisingly tight ship and has maintained not only his trademark poker face throughout, he has, in a city known for "leaks" has been watertight. It must be frustrating for Trump, who thrives on 'insider' information, to have neither any clue as to what the SC is planning nor the means to get a foothold on any information...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
That the public hasn't heard anything re:Gates' cooperation doesn't mean a thing. Mueller is under no obligation to prosecute the moment he finds evidence of a crime.

Absolutely true. From what has transpired thus far, it appears the SC is building his case(s) from the ground up, placing certain persons and events in an order to lay a solid foundation for the next level up in action(s). For example, the Cohen plea deal has Cohen not only admitting his participation in a scheme to violate US Law regarding campaign financing, it also has him naming Trump as participant, as yet unindicted; the Manafort plea deal has Manafort not only admitting his participation in the infamous Trump Tower meeting in a conspiracy to violate US Law regarding collusion with a foreign power against the interests of the US, he also admitted to the content and purpose of the meeting and the participation of Trump Jr and Kushner; it should be noted if, as Trump's own attorneys have stated, that Trump, himself, dictated the statement, released under Trump Jr's name, in an effort to obfuscate the true nature of the meeting and to sidetrack pending investigation, then Trump would be open to obstruction of justice, criminal conspiracy, etc. ...


It appears what the SC has done, and is doing, is getting all the low level lackeys to all agree on who was the Chief who was actually calling the shots...


Quote:
Originally Posted by August View Post
OK but expect to be disappointed.

Nah, I don't think the American people will be disappointed: we'll be too busy celebrating...


... but don't worry: we'll at least offer you a beer to cry into...











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Old 09-18-18, 02:00 AM   #5372
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Originally Posted by vienna View Post
the Manafort plea deal has Manafort not only admitting his participation in the infamous Trump Tower meeting in a conspiracy to violate US Law regarding collusion with a foreign power against the interests of the US, he also admitted to the content and purpose of the meeting and the participation of Trump Jr and Kushner;
Huh? I don't think that's correct? Granted, I've only briefly gone over the plea deal document, but I don't recall him talking about the Trump Tower meeting?


***

In stunning move, Trump declassifies documents related to Russia probe

Quote:
A statement by the White House press office said Trump had directed the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI), the Department of Justice and the FBI to declassify about 20 pages of a highly sensitive application for surveillance against Carter Page, a one-time Trump foreign policy aide.

The documents Trump is releasing reflect a specific request, down to the page numbers, made by the Republican members of the House judiciary and intelligence committees this summer. Justice and intelligence officials had resisted releasing the information on the grounds that it was too sensitive.
I wonder how it'll backfire this time.

Last edited by Dowly; 09-18-18 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 09-18-18, 10:27 AM   #5373
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Today is September 18th ... does it look like Mueller's investigation is going to be over in time for the mid term elections early in November?

I don't think so and if it were to end ...what effect would the findings have on the GOP in the mid-term elections?
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Old 09-18-18, 04:05 PM   #5374
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Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
Huh? I don't think that's correct? Granted, I've only briefly gone over the plea deal document, but I don't recall him talking about the Trump Tower meeting?


***

You are correct: it is incorrect and I apologize. I had heard a report on the radio analyzing Manafort's allocution (for which, unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a transcript) and the point was raised about the charges and allegations not included in the formal agreement, including likely charges of criminal conspiracy related to the Trump Tower meeting; the reporter commented that, given how the plea agreement and, particularly, the allocution were/are defined, the ability of Manafort to obfuscate or deflect on the nature and content of the meeting is, for all practical and legal purposes, nil; the reporter further noted he can't deny the participation or its nature of either Trump Jr. or Kushner, if asked directly by the SC or during testimony before a Federal Grand Jury. I made that post, and the statements therein, while trying to do two other tasks at the same tome and somehow conflated the two sources. Again, I apologize and I thank you for the good catch...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dowly View Post

A really bad outcome for the Trump camp would be the documents will fully back up the position of the FBI, the SC, and other related entities that all the proper means and methods were actually followed and all the "i's" were dotted and all the "t's" were crossed, resulting in a huge embarrassment for the Trumpers, although, knowing their derailed trains of thought, they'll concoct some sort of 'Deep State" conspiracy to try and deflect; maybe they should put Alex Jones on retainer right now...

The worst case for the Trumpers would be if the previously redacted or otherwise withheld parts of the filings actually cast a broader light on the actions, connections, and/or illegal activities yet to be disclosed, say something like emails, letters, wiretap transcripts, etc., that would further ensnare the participants in the scandal(s). There's and old law school and trial lawyers' saying: “You never ask a question on cross examination to which you do not know the answer to.” The maxim would hold well in the case of the redacted documents; only a relatively few people outside of the Justice Dept. actually know what the whole contents of the FISA warrants and their supporting evidence contain. The US Senate Intelligence Committee members, both DEM and GOP, know the contents, but have wisely declined, thus far, to move to release the information; the US House Intelligence Committee members also know the contents, but only to varying degrees: GOP Chairman Nunes has been furtively concealing some of the information from the DEM Committee members and has shown a very obvious devotion to protecting Trump at all costs. This has included releasing what should have been classified, sensitive information selectively in order to reinforce both his position and Trump's. However, Nunes appears to be wearing blinders in his selection of what to disclose and further seems to have that curious blindness and deafness Trumpers seem to have, you know, the type were, when presented with actual facts, they shut their eyes tight, put their fingers in their ears while shouting "Don't see, don't hear it!! Na-na-na-na, Its not happening!!". The big problem is, there are so few of the and so many, many more reasonable adults who are looking and listening...

I'm also still analyzing the Manafort plea filings and I'm impressed at the depth of detail in Mueller's filing of case information. You know, it seems a good court filing is far more elucidative than any quantity of semi-literate, barely intelligible Tweets...

Again, Dowly: Thanks for the catch...










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Old 09-18-18, 06:02 PM   #5375
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In yesterdays weekly episode of The World according to Trump on our Danish News Channel

The host in the studio asked the Journalist in USA

Are we getting close or further away from Trump and perhaps a impeachment.

The Journalist sad.

No one knows.

If we are further away or closer
and if we are closer we do not know if it is Trump or some from his family who's behind.
(I could have forgot some of it)

In this episode they were talking about Manafort and his agreement with the prosecutor.

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Old 09-18-18, 08:19 PM   #5376
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We, here in the US, don't know either; its all very much open to speculation...


Way back in the Presidential Election thread, when Trump was elected by the Electoral College, I said I did not believe Trump would be impeached, and I still stand by that prediction. Trump, when he started his run was, as usual, completely ignorant of what he was getting into and the possible (probable) effects the mere act of running for President would entail. He was and is still is a person of secrets and concealments. I think he somehow thought the office of President would be a shield or barrier against the possibility of having his dirty laundry made public; oh, how wrong he was (as usual). If anything at all, running for President just opens up a person's life in ways unimaginable. Trump has, over his life, had an awful lot of shady, possibly illegal dealings, associations with disreputable characters, and more than the usual share of depraved immoralities. Being in such a state, it would be very unwise to subject one's life to inspection. His big problem is that a greater majority of his transgressions and criminality are probably true and he is now finding himself having to face an accounting. The really big downside, in Trump's world, would not necessarily be being impeached, it would be facing legal action that would most probably result in the forfeiture and/or loss of his precious assets, something brought into a stark reality by the extent of the forfeiture of assets by Manafort as part of his plea deal, totaling, in real property and financial holdings (up to and including loss of a life insurance policy) an estimated USD $46,000,000. If Trump's dealings and/or his questionable tax returns result in legal action, Trump could lose far, far more than he expects. Add to possible governmental fines and levies the likelihood those holding his massive debts would also be disinclined to continue supporting him and call in his notes and/or start civil proceedings to recoup. Basically, Trump could easily lose all of his 'empire' even if he isn't impeached but is tried after leaving office. Given how highly Trump holds his little kingdom and his public persona, if enough pressure is asserted by the SC's investigation, Trump may pull a "Nixon" and make a deal : "I'll resign if you don't pursue legal action against me and leave me with a good chunk of my assets"...


...of course, Trump will then leave office , have someone write a book for him claiming he was a"victim" of "deep states" and "lying media", hit the lecture circuit (for a 'huuuge' fee), and then, like Oliver North, become another poster child of the Far, Far Right (for a 'huuuge' fee)...


An interesting BTW about Manafort's USD $46,000,000 forfeiture: combining that 'huuuge' amount with other forfeitures, fines, fees and back taxes collected from some of the other persons who have already plead guilty, adding in possible future assessments, it would appear Mueller's investigation could actually turn a bit of a profit after costs. Certainly puts a very significant dent in the Trumper's whining and deflections about the 'wasteful' cost of the SC's office...












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Old 09-19-18, 08:26 AM   #5377
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I wonder how Trump declassifying the documents is seen from a legal standpoint? Obviously, as the POTUS he has the authority to declassify documents, but what if his intent is to interfere, in this case in an investigation where he himself is a subject of investigation?

Trump's own tweet in which he quotes Peter King gives us an idea what the documents will be about:

Quote:
“What will be disclosed is that there was no basis for these FISA Warrants, that the important information was kept from the court, there’s going to be a disproportionate influence of the (Fake) Dossier. Basically you have a counter terrorism tool used to spy on a presidential...
....campaign, which is unprecedented in our history.” Congressman Peter King Really bad things were happening, but they are now being exposed. Big stuff!
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...30988518408194
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...31772433883136


Doesn't seem to be much new, the political nature of the Steele dossier was made known in the FISA application as the HIC Dems showed after the release of the Nunes memo, so that's old news.


Whatever the documents will show, it certainly doesn't send a very encouraging message to anyone thinking of working with the US intelligence, since they can't be sure if someone like Trump will just go ahead and potentially reveal them.
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Old 09-19-18, 08:55 AM   #5378
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Originally Posted by Dowly View Post
Whatever the documents will show, it certainly doesn't send a very encouraging message to anyone thinking of working with the US intelligence, since they can't be sure if someone like Trump will just go ahead and potentially reveal them.
That might be true. But I wonder how many people will hesitate to get involved in future Presidential campaigns because of what happened in this past election?
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Old 09-19-18, 09:51 AM   #5379
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You'd be surprised how many people just will not care, because for them politics is just about "our guy" being the last man standing, no matter what. Crowds accept surprisingly big damage to their own interests just to avoid needing to realise that "their guy" is a piece of garbage. Because that would tell them something unpleasant about themselves. And the greater their investments into "their guy" and his fame and glory, the less motivation there will be in the future to question him or said investments - because that would mean to risk that past investments were thrown out of the window. Conclusion: we must invest even more to prevent that there will ever be judgement day coming and all our earlier investments go lost. And so: from bad to worse, from worse to worst.

Its a known pattern in politics and sociology, sociologists even have their own name and model for it.

Another argument on the long list of arguments speaking against "democracy" and general elections for just every Peter and Paul. Voting is like hooliganism in Britain. Males meeting on weekends to trade kicks and strikes and beat each other up, do not do it because they have personal anger at the other individual. They do it for some archaic tribal totem-fetishism. Who has the longest - thats what it comes down to. This ground is ours. Us and Them. And politics show that.

Not even the Vulcans would be able to clean up this mess. Its archaic behaviour on so deep-rooting instinct level that I would not mind to call it animalistic.

Or as Freud said: civilization is only a very thin layer of paint on the surface, all too easily being scratched off.

Its politics and the political caste that must be ended. Else we will end like the Easter Islanders, from the hands of politicians, by the use of politics.

Also, we are too many.
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Old 09-19-18, 10:04 AM   #5380
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This is one great country that allows you to say what you want, when you want without fear of being poisoned
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Old 09-20-18, 02:34 AM   #5381
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Originally Posted by Skybird View Post
You'd be surprised how many people just will not care, because for them politics is just about "our guy" being the last man standing, no matter what. Crowds accept surprisingly big damage to their own interests just to avoid needing to realise that "their guy" is a piece of garbage. Because that would tell them something unpleasant about themselves. And the greater their investments into "their guy" and his fame and glory, the less motivation there will be in the future to question him or said investments - because that would mean to risk that past investments were thrown out of the window. Conclusion: we must invest even more to prevent that there will ever be judgement day coming and all our earlier investments go lost. And so: from bad to worse, from worse to worst.

Its a known pattern in politics and sociology, sociologists even have their own name and model for it.

Another argument on the long list of arguments speaking against "democracy" and general elections for just every Peter and Paul. Voting is like hooliganism in Britain. Males meeting on weekends to trade kicks and strikes and beat each other up, do not do it because they have personal anger at the other individual. They do it for some archaic tribal totem-fetishism. Who has the longest - thats what it comes down to. This ground is ours. Us and Them. And politics show that.

Not even the Vulcans would be able to clean up this mess. Its archaic behaviour on so deep-rooting instinct level that I would not mind to call it animalistic.

Or as Freud said: civilization is only a very thin layer of paint on the surface, all too easily being scratched off.

Its politics and the political caste that must be ended. Else we will end like the Easter Islanders, from the hands of politicians, by the use of politics.

Also, we are too many.
I do not always agree with Skybird but that summarizes it very good...The meta concern for me is if Western democracy will "survive" in the long end against systems like the Chinese one.

I am still a bit optimistic seeing the current struggle as related to the transformation to the digital revolution and its negative consequences for quite a large portion of citizens and especially workers.

But what really concerns me is the culture shift....not only in the US but also in my country and Europe in general, which is reflected also in this forum thread.
People do not arguing anymore about who has the best concepts, improving their lives, society and in general the world like it was in former times. They blame each other like if the other be would be a criminal, having no respect and no intention to find together solutions.

But this is a prerequisite to make a democracy work. How could it be happen that we have forgotten this ?
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Old 09-20-18, 03:46 PM   #5382
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Meanwhile US sanctions China over the S-400 buy.
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Old 09-20-18, 04:07 PM   #5383
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But what really concerns me is the culture shift....not only in the US but also in my country and Europe in general, which is reflected also in this forum thread.
People do not arguing anymore about who has the best concepts, improving their lives, society and in general the world like it was in former times. They blame each other like if the other be would be a criminal, having no respect and no intention to find together solutions.

But this is a prerequisite to make a democracy work. How could it be happen that we have forgotten this ?
Excellent point.
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Old 09-20-18, 06:36 PM   #5384
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Originally Posted by Hawk66 View Post
But this is a prerequisite to make a democracy work. How could it be happen that we have forgotten this ?

I would like to take the time to repost something that I feel is pertinent to this question

We are three-hundred-and-twenty-five million opinionated, vociferous individuals. We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates. But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement. If only we remember that and give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country we will get through these challenging times. We will come through them stronger than before. We always do." -- John McCain, 2018



"... give each other the benefit of the presumption that we all love our country"

This is what is lacking in our country now. People are starting to believe that the opposing political side is the enemy and that they hate the country and that only their side loves their country

Both sides love their country and want only the best. We may, and should, disagree on the means, but not lose sight that we all love our country and want to make it better.

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Old 09-20-18, 09:33 PM   #5385
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Nice thoughts Platapus but I fear we have moved beyond such unity platitudes. The cultural schisms between left and right in this country have grown too large and it's only a matter of time before the chasm engulfs us.
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