Gun Control thread (merged many)

[Feuer Frei!]

The N.R.A. (National Rifle Association) released an ad which takes a shot(excuse the pun) at Obama and Bill Clinton, and stating that: "Washington doesn’t give us rights, but we are the ones that grant them power".
After denouncing Obama and Bill as arrogant in which the NRA states that both of them made offensive remarks about gun owners.

Bill's comment, made at a speech for donors, which stirred the ire of the NRA:

A lot of these people…all they’ve got is their hunting and their fishing or they’ve been listening to this stuff for so long that they believe it all.

and Barack, to a room of San Francisco elites in 2008:

And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion

Are there extremists in charge at the NRA? Probably not.
Imagining itself and its guns as the embodiment of all that is true and good in this world. That's a feeling one might get, certainly this would give some weight to the argument that arrogance, and a an aura of "hey look at us, we can do what we like, when we like because we fund the politicians" or is it something other than arrogance or a feeling of being untouchable hence the arrogant attacks and media exposure and the slogan of the ad, saying pretty much what i believe, and has caused me to start this thread.
Today it is arguably the most powerful lobbying organization in the nation’s capital and certainly one of the most feared.
These are people that say no.
They are absolutist in their interpretation of the Second Amendment. The NRA learned that controversy isn’t a problem but rather, in many cases, a solution, a motivator, a recruitment tool, an inspiration.
Gun-control legislation is the NRA’s best friend. It uses fear when necessary to motivate supporters. The ultimate goal of gun-control advocates, the NRA claims, is confiscation and then total disarmament, leading to government tyranny.
“We must declare that there are no shades of gray in American freedom. It’s black and white, all or nothing,” Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre said at an NRA annual meeting in 2002, a message that the organization has reiterated at almost every opportunity since.
“You’re with us or against us.”
Timothy McVeigh’s April 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building killed 168 people, including 19 children in a day-care center, and although the NRA had nothing to do with the terrorist attack, the association’s strident anti-government rhetoric drew national attention. News reports focused on a fundraising letter, signed by LaPierre and sent to NRA members before the bombing, that said the new assault-weapons ban “gives jackbooted Government thugs more power to take away our constitutional rights, break in our doors, seize our guns, destroy our property and even injure and kill us.”
Even staunch NRA members began to get queasy. Former president George H.W. Bush resigned his NRA membership. Former NRA president Richard Riley, who headed the association from 1990 to 1992, told The Post at the time, “We were akin to the Boy Scouts of America . . . and now we’re cast with the Nazis, the skinheads and the Ku Klux Klan.”


Fortune magazine ranked the NRA as the most powerful lobbying group in Washington, surpassing even AARP. That was in 2000.
The NRA is now headquartered outside the Beltway, in Fairfax, and, according to its 2010 filing with the IRS, has 781 employees and 125,000 volunteers. Annual revenue tops $200 million. It’s a tax-exempt, “social welfare” organization with the self-described mission “to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution, to promote public safety, law and order and the National defense.”
Here
is an article which seems to give creedence to it's 'more guns is the answer to everything' line.
So, "We are America", the title of the video for the ad, which is here: http://www.nrastandandfight.com/video/we-are-america


A group who questions and attempts to hold the State accountable or a too powerful and arrogant group who thinks it can do and say what it feels like?

[GoldenRivet]

I've been an NRA member though I am not currently... All they ever expressed any interest in doing is defending my second amendment right and promoting firearm safety.

Fanatics? Arrogant? Well I guess that depends on where you stand in the firearms debate.

[mookiemookie]

The NRA used to be about gun safety. Now it's about lobbying and agenda pushing.

They attempt to make any legislator that brings up the topic of any sort of gun law as being a jackbooted government thug that's coming to rape your family and take your guns to melt down and be turned into instruments that are to be given to gay doctors in order for them to provide abortions for free for illegal immigrants. If ownership of nuclear weapons and bunker buster bombs wasn't already illegal for private citizens, I suspect the NRA would be leading the charge against any law that tried to make them so.

Arrogant or Fanatics?

It is a big group with a varied membership.
Like any big group it is going to contain some who fit the bill .
La Pierre is a compelete twat though who is probably very fitting for the "arrogant" title.

They are absolutist in their interpretation of the Second Amendment.

No they are not, they just claim to be absolutist when they think it is making their point.
The fact that they are not absolutist means that all their arguements based on the absolute position are actually false.

Fanatics? Arrogant? Well I guess that depends on where you stand in the firearms debate.

Not really, it depends on which NRA member you are talking about.
That fat bloke Moore who makes films is a member isn't he, most people across the spectrum would probably call him arrogant and a fanatic.

[Skybird]

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

I could be for rights of owning a firearm - and by European standards I am more in favour of that than is considered politically correct over here - and still would not wish to have anything to do with this highly dubious organisation.

Lobbyism should be understood as a capital crime, because in my book it is conspiration against the people. In case of the NRA, the conspirators are powerful enough to blackmail the representatives who got "legitimated" through public elections - whatever that is worth in today's prolocracy, but let'S ignore that for the moment. When lobbies draw the laws and design the policies, a democracy is no more a democracy where majority decisions by and on behalf of the people decide things. It is a hidden form of tyranny by a small, hidden elite bypassing the democratic rules completely, and abusing them. That'S why I consider lobbyism to be a capital crime. That is true for business lobbies. That is true for grassroot movement lobbies. Lobbyism always is aiming at bypassing the majority vote, or manipulating it. That's what makes it criminal.

[August]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The NRA used to be about gun safety. Now it's about lobbying and agenda pushing.

I firmly believe that if the NRA weren't doing those things the American people would have no use for gun safety because they would not be allowed to own them. Handguns would have been banned in 1968 and semi-autos in 1994 and we'd be debating the need for people to have bolt action sniper rifles, erm I mean hunting rifles.

As for who grants rights to whom the NRA is correct about that as well. The government does not grant rights to the American people. They derive their powers from the consent of the governed. Inalienable rights are inalienable.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

Absolutely correct.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The NRA is about securing and boosting profits for the firearms-producing industry, it is no amendment-defending lobby at all but a business lobby putting profit above everything else.

This it is, and nothing else - everything else they claim to be is just alibi, deception, misleading of the public, blackmailing politicians, and hijacking the 2nd amendment.

I could be for rights of owning a firearm - and by European standards I am more in favour of that than is considered politically correct over here - and still would not wish to have anything to do with this highly dubious organisation.

Lobbyism should be understood as a capital crime, because in my book it is conspiration against the people. In case of the NRA, the conspirators are powerful enough to blackmail the representatives who got "legitimated" through public elections - whatever that is worth in today's prolocracy, but let'S ignore that for the moment. When lobbies draw the laws and design the policies, a democracy is no more a democracy where majority decisions by and on behalf of the people decide things. It is a hidden form of tyranny by a small, hidden elite bypassing the democratic rules completely, and abusing them. That'S why I consider lobbyism to be a capital crime. That is true for business lobbies. That is true for grassroot movement lobbies. Lobbyism always is aiming at bypassing the majority vote, or manipulating it. That's what makes it criminal.

See you're a MSNBC lover..

I'm not a member, was years ago, but the NRA has evolved over the years as more gun control came about. They certainly turned into more of a lobbying force, but the question is why?

Lobbies are made of people defending their beliefs, that's why the supreme court says they're lawful. The problem becomes when one side gets radical, the other side gets as radical. In the end this is supposed to balance things out.

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicains that would sell out.

[Singed]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

A group who questions and attempts to hold the State accountable or a too powerful and arrogant group who thinks it can do and say what it feels like?

Both and neither, it is like any other PAC and it's primary purpose is ensuring it's own existence so those in leadership positions can keep drawing their salaries. It's a pretty typical American lobbying group in that regard.

I do think however it does something important, support what it fights for and am a member, I just have a very cynical view of any such organization.

[Singed]

Deleted: Double post somehow.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

The problem isn't so much with lobbies, but people that won't stand up for what they believe, like many politicains that would sell out.

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies. Lobbies are simply groups of people combining together to push their beliefs. You start a lobby, I start one to counter you, it's the American way.

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.

The NRA isn't really a big lobby itself, it's a force because millions of non-members believe in many of it's principles. The anti-gun people can't compete with this force. I'm sure they're many Dems in gun states that are really anti-gun, but rather than stand up for what they believe, they pretend to be pro-gun. Probably why Reid won't bring up a gun vote, scared if he forces these Dems to vote with the party, they'll lose their upcoming elections...If he does call a vote, he'll lose and he knows it, politicians would rather keep their seats.

The fact America is a gun nation has little to do with the NRA, but because most want to own guns for numerous reasons.

The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

[Ducimus]

I don't necessarily agree with everything the NRA says or does, but they are the best organization to defend the second amendment.

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

I think you're totally wrong there. The problem across the board are lobbies and interest groups. Our politicians enter their first term with the intention of serving the people, but end up being bought and paid for by the end of their first week in office. It's why we can't make any progress on energy -- in any direction. It's why we can't do anything about the budget. The influcence of these groups have caused our politicians to lose the ability to actually negotiate long-term solutions.

All too true, and while i don't like how this is how things are in this manner, it isn't going to change anytime soon. It is also why I gave the NRA a two year membership and other monetary donations to begin with. The real power in our government is not in the voting booth. If you want the real power, just follow the money. Contributing money to the NRA is tantamount to going to a voting booth, only much more effective.

edit:

Originally Posted by Armistead

I agree, but the problem is corrupt politicians, not lobbies.

Also true in my opinion. Politicans don't care about anything but keeping their jobs and maintaining power and prestige. They are little more then puppets, and more often then not, are not representative of their people. They get into office, then do what they want anyway if they think they can get away with it.

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

That's like saying that the problem isn't the drug pushers, it's the drug users. And just because something is traditionally done does not mean that that tradition is the best, or even right way to go about it. History is littered with harmful traditions.



The NRA is an extremely powerful lobby. It's not like the oil lobby (no other lobby is anywhere near that powerful), but it is has a lot of influence.

America is a gun nation. Huh. That's an odd phrase, but a telling one.

Well, I would say it is the drug users. I choose not to do drugs and obey the law. If people are willing to commit crimes, someone will be there to meet their needs. Supply only exist because of demand.

The NRA only has 4 million members. That leaves over 100,000,000 gun owners not members. That is where the real power lies. However, the NRA is growing and will always be a force.