[REL] FOTRS Ultimate Project

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Jackdaw

No idea if I'm right here, but since I did not find any grief box ...:
- Another problem -

Ultimate0.8 -
Coastal Merchant [NKSQ] - Draft:


Recently, NOV. 1944, I wanted to do a couple of test shots with contact and magnetic pistol. Target was the Coastal Merch. Six perfect shots around the recommended depth settings; all missed?
I was excited! Little annoyed, I set another torpedo at 2.60 m - hits, destroyed! Now suspicious, I searched.

The NKSQ.cfg gives the draft at 5.48 m / 17.97 (18) ft. ID Book 5.50 m. The cfg also points out that the NKSQ uses the Taihosan model. Taihosan cfg gives the draft at 3,70 m/12,13 (12) ft.

Maybe this little thing could be fixed in a next version of the mod, Thanks!

P.S .: Will not try for long now. Is it sufficient to change the NKSQ cfg accordingly or are other files affected?

Originally Posted by torpedobait

I believe all 3 of the "Ada Maru" type freighters/auxillary ships have a draft problem as well. The manual claims something over 20' (I don't have it handy right now, so this is strictly from memory), but it takes a torpedo setting of 10' to get a hit. I also think this is a known issue that Propbeanie said would be addressed in a subsequent release. I'm just bringing it up as a reminder.

You are correct torpedobait. More RecMan changes in this next release, which has been in the incubator for a bit now. RR was attempting to install Win10 on his computer. Hopefully, it did not trash what he already had set-up... - but anyway, we're most likely not going to correct to perfection, even if we could, all of the entries in the RecMan, due to what RR refers to as the "fog of war" factor, where there were typos in the RecMan the skippers had. Bad mast heights, bad lengths, bad depths, etc., not forgetting the mis-identification thing. By 1944, you would think they would have made quite a few corrections, but the skippers themselves kept crib sheets and notes in their books... not that there weren't some actual "mistakes" added-in by the FotRSU team to compound the issue. - I've made enough for a whole 16-man team - and there aren't near that many on the FotRSU team...

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Yes, 16 knot average setting for Makassar Straits, headed for Batavia. Unfortunately, the slowest ship in the group can only do 15 knots

Just ended latest stream. Successful night time TF intercept exactly where expected. Seas heavier at 11 m/s. The flat top was rolling even more. Light and heavy cruisers pitching less than the carrier, but still seemed to be a little off in one way or another. Either too high in the water or pitching. The only ships that really seemed to be maintaining a realistic stance on the waves were the destroyers and the one remaining merchant. Felt good to make that third contact with the same task force. A first for me. And I doubt that I will soon do it again. Sank only one destroyer though. I think I turned in for my attack run too early and should have continued to run out in front of them for a bit longer. Oh yeah. Almost forgot. Formation speed was 17 knots this time. I guess I sank the slow one already?

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

You're welcome. Yes what you say is consistent with my observations of the formation. If I find more I will let you know. Last night I was successful in reestablishing contact after breaking off and navigating north of the shoals while the task force passed to the south of them. This time I was able to actually put two boats on the bottom. An IJN destroyer with a MK27 and that Tanker that was way too low in the water (MK27 & later finished with deck gun after dark). Having no propulsion, after the MK27 hit, the formation had abandoned this ship. On second contact the flat top was also pitching more than I observed on first contact. Or seemed to me to be anyway. Wind was still at 8 m/s. Due to geography and the task force direction of travel I surmised that the group must be heading for the northern end of The Makassar Strait where it opens up into the Southern Celebes Sea. So I made haste for that position and believe that I got there ahead of them due to Japanese air cover direction of travel seeming not to be from the direction of any airfield in range. Saved and ended session there as I lay in wait hoping for a third contact with the same Task Force. This kind of running gunfight is new to me in SH4 and frankly a lot of fun. I guess it goes without saying that the full videos of my recent streams are available in the video section of my twitch profile page. Although there may be muted sections due to twitch AI making a copyright violation decision about music played on stream. Last night's stream was actually broken into two video segments however due to some disruption in my internet connection.

Back to this now Sir Immelmann... I have found several issues, especially with the 43a_Jap_TaskForce.mis file. This is similar to what I had found in the 43a_Jap_Convoys.mis file a while back, in some of the bad routing, most likely caused by use of scripting to add-in all of the zig-zags in the groups' routings. I can attest to the fact that this aspect of the game is very easy to overlook, just by the fact that with a lot of this, you have to zoom-in to the 10km level or closer, which is quite close, in order to "see" the "errors". Some of them are not visible until almost all the way in, such as if the group is routed through and over Betio Island in Tarawa Atoll - The Convoys layer had the same problem, just not as many groups routed over land. Thankfully, the TaskForce layers aren't as populated as the Convoys layers are, but they all have issues...

However, there is another wrinkle in the pudding. We've made changes to ship configurations, as well as group make-ups over time, and those edits were done ~after~ the routing and speeds were set (by the FOTRS AOTD_MadMax team). The Mission Editor does NOT catch any issues if you stick a 12 knot Max Speed ship in a group that is set to do 18 knots across open water, nor would it catch changing the ship's configuration... This seems to be another factor in these "bad" spawns that we've seen all-too often. The game engine finds it extremely difficult to build a group that has not been "keeping convoy" for the last 912 waypoints...




I'm trying to come up with a script that can search for the Max Speed of the slowest ship in all of the groups, and find all of the waypoint speeds that are set at or above that... If I can do that, then I'll try to change them via another script, 'cause this "doing it by hand" is about to drive me bonkers - and that is usually a ~very~ short drive...

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The Mission Editor does NOT catch any issues if you stick a 12 knot Max Speed ship in a group that is set to do 18 knots across open water, nor would it catch changing the ship's configuration... This seems to be another factor in these "bad" spawns that we've seen all-too often. The game engine finds it extremely difficult to build a group that has not been "keeping convoy" for the last 912 waypoints...

Yes. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but what I have observed seems consistent with what you say. When I made first contact, and second, then third, the formation seemed out of sorts. Not a nicely lined up set of columns, so to speak. It is my habit, perhaps not a purely submarine command realistic one, to start pressing the period key and rotate through the views of all the contacts. I suppose from a beta testing perspective it is a good practice though. But yes the formation seemed very helter skelter or harum scarum. Not organized at all. I had always assumed, that when I saw this in a formation, that it meant hyper sensitive detection ability on the part of my foe. That they had either picked up my radar signals or heard me over passive sonar. And thus started to bob and weave breaking up their formation. I am now rethinking that idea and considering that it may just be the result of inability to hold a cohesive formation.

[propbeanie]

OK, I ~finally~ got to see that Taffy you saw, but with my edits on the file, in a Single Mission test file I made. The group looks much better, no "rockers" (a few "mods" - ahem, bad joke, sorry). Scary thing is, now that none of the ships have trouble keeping convoy, the escorts are a bit more attentive to what is going on around them... two came after me before I got close, three stayed with the group, and two more did an "in between, just-in-case" stance... once the two started dropping their cans, the other two went back to the group, and those five escorts and the group took off... I'm still at 265, under the layer, silent running for the last 8 hours game time, running out of air and battery, still with the cans falling, a few at a time. I've been submerged about 12 hours (game time) altogether, so have a ways to go there, but no fans, no pumps... I might get about 30 minutes between attacks, but usually less... surely, they'll run out of depth charges before I do air. The sun is surely setting by now... Who is this "Shirley" anyway?... This "testing" stuff can surely be stressful... - btw, have I mentioned how much I detest "glass sea" conditions?...

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

OK, I ~finally~ got to see that Taffy you saw, but with my edits on the file, in a Single Mission test file I made. The group looks much better, no "rockers" (a few "mods" - ahem, bad joke, sorry). Scary thing is, now that none of the ships have trouble keeping convoy, the escorts are a bit more attentive to what is going on around them... two came after me before I got close, three stayed with the group, and two more did an "in between, just-in-case" stance... once the two started dropping their cans, the other two went back to the group, and those five escorts and the group took off... I'm still at 265, under the layer, silent running for the last 8 hours game time, running out of air and battery, still with the cans falling, a few at a time. I've been submerged about 12 hours (game time) altogether, so have a ways to go there, but no fans, no pumps... I might get about 30 minutes between attacks, but usually less... surely, they'll run out of depth charges before I do air. The sun is surely setting by now... Who is this "Shirley" anyway?... This "testing" stuff can surely be stressful... - btw, have I mentioned how much I detest "glass sea" conditions?...

With the Task Force making proper speed I bet there is no way I could do the kind of running, break contact then re-establish contact the way that I have been on that formation. I hide down around 350 feet. Don't know if that would make that big of a difference. Also I go to the tachometer and speed selector on the command deck and make sure I am at or below 50 rpm. Good luck. Oh incidentally, if I told you guys that I took 25 points of hull damage while transiting the Panama Canal then you would tell me that I am on my with that one, right?

[propbeanie]

First of all, as I'm diving for the final approach on a group, after I've got their speed, route, and maybe even the zig-zag lengths, I do the dive at normal TC, 1x, so that I hear the "Passing thermal layer" comment. I then go another 50-100 foot below that and hang out at a 1 knot speed setting, and like you, double-check my gauges and make certain that I'm below 50 rpm. I've used the nomograph, etc., every tool I can remember to think of to help me get into proper position, so that as the lead DD passes overhead, I'm coming up in the middle of the group. Or maybe I'm slipping through a "hole" in the side. While I'm doing all that, I'm setting my torps' depth & speed, and maybe the angle, if I'm reasonably certain of my solution, and know about where I'll be shooting from (very seldom). A thermal layer deep, like below 300 foot complicates that exponentially, of course. When the group's escorts are getting to be within hydrophone range, I go "Silent Running". Then, about 30 minutes later, I get depth-charged... - sometimes. I did end up dying just a little bit ago in that scenario. One of the other escorts came back, after the group "held" about 5 miles from me. Then the DD did the old "wagon wheel" on top of me, taking turns in their depth charge runs, one always listening. I had been almost 30 minutes again without any raining down on me, and had most of the damage repaired that could be, except of course, the hull damage. Once the "Boom!!" started again, it was another point about of hull damage, for each explosion, sometimes five. Didn't take 'em long... It was almost like the one fellow was dropping one on either side of me, and the next would drop one above and one below. What a wild ride... Panic was in the air for just a little bit, and then the ole SH4 "death" screen, where you wonder if the computer crashed for about a minute... I wish they would have come up with something else for that...

As for the canal, how did you travel through? Did you hear any "Banshee Skreaching"? Like you were running over an anti-sub net? There are none there in FotRSU, if that's what you were using. However, there is one little thing about the game, when it comes to navigating in tight places, like a canal. If you look at the "lay of the land" in the Mission Editor, it actually looks quite a bit like it does on the NavMap, as far as the "jaggies" go:



But notice that I've got the "View" menu open, and selecting the "Render accurate shoreline"? That yields a slightly different picture:



They do not have that in the NavMap view, only the "jaggie" shoreline. Notice how the land and sea are displaced in different places? This is why sometimes, you just have to be on the bridge, personally driving the boat. It just might be that you scraped bottom or the sides in a couple of spots, which is entirely too easy to do if doing Waypoint navigating, especially if you do TC above 8x and don't get to hear all the warning sounds... Myself, I have not tried to go through there, but I will now. Then I might try the Suez, and a few others... - If you look closely at the map in the ME, you'll notice some "odd" changes from land to water in there, especially the west end of Gatun Lake, and up by Colon, which is where it appears that the adjoining grid was not edited the same, so it might also be that there are "pillars of death" in there, like we had at Truk in an earlier version of FotRSU, which you would not see those, unless on the bridge the whole time.

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

As for the canal, how did you travel through? Did you hear any "Banshee Skreaching"? Like you were running over an anti-sub net? There are none there in FotRSU, if that's what you were using. However, there is one little thing about the game, when it comes to navigating in tight places, like a canal. If you look at the "lay of the land" in the Mission Editor, it actually looks quite a bit like it does on the NavMap, as far as the "jaggies" go:

But notice that I've got the "View" menu open, and selecting the "Render accurate shoreline"? That yields a slightly different picture:

They do not have that in the NavMap view, only the "jaggie" shoreline. Notice how the land and sea are displaced in different places? This is why sometimes, you just have to be on the bridge, personally driving the boat. It just might be that you scraped bottom or the sides in a couple of spots, which is entirely too easy to do if doing Waypoint navigating, especially if you do TC above 8x and don't get to hear all the warning sounds... Myself, I have not tried to go through there, but I will now. Then I might try the Suez, and a few others... - If you look closely at the map in the ME, you'll notice some "odd" changes from land to water in there, especially the west end of Gatun Lake, and up by Colon, which is where it appears that the adjoining grid was not edited the same, so it might also be that there are "pillars of death" in there, like we had at Truk in an earlier version of FotRSU, which you would not see those, unless on the bridge the whole time.

I seriously expected you to tell me that was beyond the scope of FOTRSU. But yes I plotted a course and used as much TC as the game would allow. One thing I have come to realize is that the plotted course is not exactly the boat's path of travel. You will swing wide of the plot on turns. And the sharper the turn, the wider the deviation. Yes I heard the typical noises of damage after the fact coming out of TC. I think there is a protrusion of an underwater obstacle, to the starboard side, before you reach the lake. The reason for me going? I wanted to see if I could make it on fuel to the North Atlantic. Even possibly engage in combat. I passed Scapa Flow and on to the German and then the French coasts. Near as I can tell there is no Allied or Axis naval or air traffic at all. I did make it to one French port and flew the free camera out to see what was happening on the docks. I found an invisible German band playing music and Nazi propaganda posters plastered all over. No people, boats, or any other signs of life though. I stopped there. I wonder if I had continued my circumnavigation of the globe if I would have returned to the same universe that I left.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by Immelmann

I seriously expected you to tell me that was beyond the scope of FOTRSU. But yes I plotted a course and used as much TC as the game would allow. One thing I have come to realize is that the plotted course is not exactly the boat's path of travel. You will swing wide of the plot on turns. And the sharper the turn, the wider the deviation. Yes I heard the typical noises of damage after the fact coming out of TC. I think there is a protrusion of an underwater obstacle, to the starboard side, before you reach the lake. The reason for me going? I wanted to see if I could make it on fuel to the North Atlantic. Even possibly engage in combat. I passed Scapa Flow and on to the German and then the French coasts. Near as I can tell there is no Allied or Axis naval or air traffic at all. I did make it to one French port and flew the free camera out to see what was happening on the docks. I found an invisible German band playing music and Nazi propaganda posters plastered all over. No people, boats, or any other signs of life though. I stopped there. I wonder if I had continued my circumnavigation of the globe if I would have returned to the same universe that I left.

I think you are allowed one and a half circumnavigations of the globe, from what I remember reading... I'm thinking that was from aanker, but cannot remember for certain... but yes, you could go from Pearl through the canal to Portsmouth, to Scotland, to the Azores, etc., and around the Cape of Good Hope (Cape Agulhas), and across the Indian and Pacific Oceans, and then to probably the canal again.

You would either have to add more bases to stop and get fuel at, or turn on unlimited fuel to make it though. I've never done that though, so I don't know for certain. I did do the Panama Canal the other day though, and was able to make it without damage, noticing that on several turns, unless you zoom way in and add waypoints, you will go over land. A couple of the turns, it looks like a person might be better off with backing up and turning to face, then going forward to turn through...

There might be an add-on later for FotRSU, that would include a bit more traffic for the Atlantic & Indian Oceans, but I have not attempted to see how badly it would slow down load times yet. It is practically impossible to do that in SH3, due to the way the whole campaign loads, but in SH4 v1.5, the files load "dynamically", though I'm sure there's a practical limit to how much the game can keep track of in its database. I do want to find that limit though, if there is one...

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

You would either have to add more bases to stop and get fuel at, or turn on unlimited fuel to make it though.

The Suez appears to be modeled looking at the map. But it looks like an even tighter fit than the Panama. I'm still scratching my head about that band music on the docks in France though. Look, I was just making conversation. I'll be happy if we get the Pacific theater squared away. Let's not go all Star Citizen here.

[propbeanie]

The band music is part of the dock scene there. The band should be somewhere in the sub pen, but maybe not... maybe it's a phantom band, playing spiritual music, of the ghostly variety...

No biggie about attempting to add other traffic in the world. All it takes is a little Campaign.cfg tweaking / combining, and the German side files can load. Just gotta be careful that file entries aren't duplicated though, and end up getting two or more of everything... but it'll be a quick way to populate the Indian Ocean, and see what happens. you don't really want the other side's NavalBases file either. That can be quite confusing... "We're under attack, Sir!"

[torpedobait]

I thought this would be a cool add, so when it was offered as new equipment on my Tambor Class USS Trout on 1/30/45 in Fremantle I took it. Problem is, I could never get it to turn on.

I tried it on the surface by raising the Attack Scope, then the Night Scope. No joy.
Next I went to Radar Depth - tried both scopes. No joy.
Finally I went to PD and tried both scopes. No joy.

I also went to the Radar station at each depth and with the scopes up (one at a time) but it refused to turn on.

Did I miss something, or is this a possible "bug"?

I went back and reloaded a Save Game from the previous arrival in port just before adding the ST Periscope radar and left the SJ-1 Improved SJ in place so I could continue the career with a good radar.

[torpedobait]

On 12/26/1944 while transiting from Fremantle toward the Lombok Strait, radar detected a target that sonar soon confirmed was a warship at 114-20E, 14-59S. We moved closer to make an identity, set up along its apparent track and waited. Eventually it came into visual range - it was a German Type IX-D2. I'd never encountered one before in multiple careers in any of the major mods, so this was a nice plum.

She never saw or apparently heard us. Two torpedoes and she went to the bottom, bow first. Interesting addition, guys. Thanks.

[propbeanie]

I found one in TMO years ago, and it scared the #%$$ out of me, but I managed to get it also... Main difference between TMO & FotRSU in this regard? The other guy can shoot torpedoes back now! I had that happen in a test mission, where my boat was there just to observe a JyunsenB interacting with airplanes. Well, let me tell you, I'm submerged at PD, watching from about 1500. The first plane goes over and drops a bomb, the Jyunsen dodges. Next thing I know, the Event Viewer comes on, and there's been a torpedo launch... sure enough, go to the sonar station, and on the 35° bearing is a torpedo sound coming at me... "Crash Dive! Ahead FLANK! Right full rudder!" He did miss me, but man... Apparently, no one told them that I was just a neutral observer...

I'll have to look at that ST. It was working for me several months ago, but I was in a Tench, so I'll try some combinations...

[Immelmann]

Originally Posted by torpedobait

On 12/26/1944 while transiting from Fremantle toward the Lombok Strait, radar detected a target that sonar soon confirmed was a warship at 114-20E, 14-59S. We moved closer to make an identity, set up along its apparent track and waited. Eventually it came into visual range - it was a German Type IX-D2. I'd never encountered one before in multiple careers in any of the major mods, so this was a nice plum.

She never saw or apparently heard us. Two torpedoes and she went to the bottom, bow first. Interesting addition, guys. Thanks.

Thanks for the coordinates. I'll have to see if I can look her up.