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Old 04-26-2011, 02:24 PM   #106
LGN1
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Originally Posted by Stiebler View Post

Just for the record, and from long experience, the following combinations of circumstances (no connexion with TDW's mods) continue to cause defective saved games that cannot be reloaded:
1. If two convoys spawn close to your U-boat at about the same time, then any game save made afterwards, wherever saved, will be corrupt.
2. Any game-save made after a convoy has spawned with Sergbuto's AI U-boats attached, will also be corrupt.

It is always safer not to make game-saves when any other unit is within 30 km.

Stiebler.
Hi Stiebler,

I'm confused. Doesn't the second comment mean that whenever you meet a convoy with Sergbuto's AI U-boats attached you cannot save anymore? If that's the case, I wonder why they are still in the NYGM campaign files

IIRC a third issue with saving is that ships from the scr layer loose their waypoints. They just continue sailing straight on. Ships from the rnd layer do not show this behavior (no idea why that's the case. Would be a great if this could be fixed. Maybe a challenge for h.sie if he gets bored ).

Regards, LGN1
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Old 04-26-2011, 03:59 PM   #107
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So those who blamed the TDW_DC_waterdisturbance_V4.0_SH3 mod were correct.
It certainly seems this way...

I just started experiencing save issues recently after a long history of care free loads. The configuration I was using was so stable I could pretty much save anywhere anytime without any regard to the usual safe practices.

Then all of a sudden, I sink a ship on a test patrol and whammo - corrupt save.

As a result, I started backtracking my recent mods and edits in an attempt to isolate the issue. From what I can see, after several tests, the water disturbance mod seems to be the culprit.

A shame really as it held so much promise for enhanced realism.
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:03 PM   #108
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It is disappointing about the DC water disturbances mod. Hopefully someone can work it out and make it work. It would add so much to the game.

Sigh...I guess I'm going to have to disable the DC mod and restart the career.

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Old 04-27-2011, 01:34 AM   #109
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@LGN1:
Quote:
I'm confused. Doesn't the second comment mean that whenever you meet a convoy with Sergbuto's AI U-boats attached you cannot save anymore? If that's the case, I wonder why they are still in the NYGM campaign files
You are correct, if you encounter a convoy with AI U-boats attached then you cannot save any more (since by then the convoy has spawned and the U-boats are firing at the convoy - I have never been certain whether it is the U-boats themselves that are the problem, or their associated use of 'underwater guns' to fire on the ships.)

NYGM retains these AI U-boats since:
a) They add a lot of realism to the game. They are so effective that they divert the convoy escorts away from the player U-boat, which is the whole function of wolf-pack attacks.
b) There are few convoys with AI U-boats attached, so it is not much of an issue.
c) It is not often that one actually needs to reload a saved game.
Taken all together, the benefits outweigh the difficulties.

Quote:
IIRC a third issue with saving is that ships from the scr layer lose their waypoints. They just continue sailing straight on. Ships from the rnd layer do not show this behavior (no idea why that's the case. Would be a great if this could be fixed. Maybe a challenge for h.sie if he gets bored ).
I had not noticed this behaviour before. I shall watch out for it in future! Thanks.

Stiebler.
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:34 AM   #110
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This is not only Nygm a, since it also does in GWX3. The error may still be just TDW-Water-Disturbance.
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Old 04-28-2011, 03:47 PM   #111
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Hi Stiebler,

thanks for your reply. I tested the save-game issue with ships in the scr layer again and could not reproduce it I remember that I tested it long time ago when there was a discussion about the harbor traffic that loses its waypoints. Since it was long ago, I don't remember what I tested exactly.

Anyway, I just want to mention that I'm not sure anymore about the save-game issues with units in the scr layer.

Cheers, LGN1
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Old 04-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #112
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Hi,

I tested the scr layer save-game issue again. I can reproduce it for units in the scr layer that are rendered when you start your patrol (e.g., the units in your home port). Units in the scr layer that are only loaded/rendered later seem not to suffer from this issue.

Cheers, LGN1
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:32 PM   #113
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@LGN1,


Thanks for the update on the movements of ships in campaign_SCR.mis after save/load. Not too serious a problem, then.

Stiebler.
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:13 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGN1 View Post
Hi,

I tested the scr layer save-game issue again. I can reproduce it for units in the scr layer that are rendered when you start your patrol (e.g., the units in your home port). Units in the scr layer that are only loaded/rendered later seem not to suffer from this issue.

Cheers, LGN1
Ships are only rendered when they are within around 30km of your u-boat. All other ships live in the _SCR (or _RND) files as placeholders, not full ship models, therefore you have rendered ships and placeholders. Both rendered ships and placeholders follow waypoints which gives them their course.

When you save a game, the game remembers all rendered ships but relies on the _SCR/RND layer for placeholders.

When you load a savegame, SH3 seems to remember waypoints for placeholders but forgets them for rendered ships, leaving them to sail blindly in a straight line.

This is the closest I can come to explaining this behaviour so I'd be grateful if anyone else can shed light on the problem.
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #115
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Hi Wreford-Brown,

from my tests it seems that SH3 remembers the waypoints in a save game IF the unit is not rendered when your patrol starts.

Waypoints of rnd layer units are definitely saved (this is confirmed easily with my zigzag rnd layers). As far as I know it's not possible that a rnd unit is spawned in your 'render area'. Therefore the 'scr harbor problem' does not exist for rnd units.

To summarize, as I understand the problem it only exists for scr units in the 30km area around your home port. As Stiebler pointed out, in this case the problem is not very crucial.

Cheers, LGN1
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:43 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by LGN1 View Post
Hi Wreford-Brown,

from my tests it seems that SH3 remembers the waypoints in a save game IF the unit is not rendered when your patrol starts.

Waypoints of rnd layer units are definitely saved (this is confirmed easily with my zigzag rnd layers). As far as I know it's not possible that a rnd unit is spawned in your 'render area'. Therefore the 'scr harbor problem' does not exist for rnd units.

To summarize, as I understand the problem it only exists for scr units in the 30km area around your home port. As Stiebler pointed out, in this case the problem is not very crucial.

Cheers, LGN1

Placeholders are not rendered therefore SH3 remembers waypoints.
Rendered ships waypoints are 'forgotten', hence harbour problem.
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:02 PM   #117
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Hi Wreford-Brown,

just to make sure that we mean the same:

When you are in the middle of the Atlantic and there is no ship within 30km of your boat, it means that there are no rendered ships; only 'placeholders'. Every ship that you encounter is a rendered ship that was a placeholder before.

I don't think there is any problem with these ships. The problem exists only for those ships that have never changed from placeholder to rendered because they had to be rendered when your patrol started. Do you agree?

Cheers, LGN1
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:35 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGN1 View Post
Hi Wreford-Brown,

just to make sure that we mean the same:

When you are in the middle of the Atlantic and there is no ship within 30km of your boat, it means that there are no rendered ships; only 'placeholders'. Every ship that you encounter is a rendered ship that was a placeholder before.

I don't think there is any problem with these ships. The problem exists only for those ships that have never changed from placeholder to rendered because they had to be rendered when your patrol started. Do you agree?

Cheers, LGN1
Yes
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:37 PM   #119
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Thanks, Wreford-Brown for confirming!

I have made another test to investigate this issue further. I started a campaign and saved the game in the harbour. I reloaded the save game and the harbour patrol lost it waypoints and sailed on a straight course --> 'harbour traffic bug'.

Now I started a new campaign, left the harbour area without saving and returned. I spotted the harbour patrol and saved the game. When I reloaded the resulting save game, the harbour patrol continued on its waypoints, i.e., no 'harbour traffic bug' observed.

From this I conclude that the 'harbour traffic bug' is really not a property of the units in the scr layer (same unit shows this issue under certain circumstances and does not show it under different ones), but a property of units that are present when your patrol starts, i.e., units that are immediately rendered when you start your patrol.
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:15 PM   #120
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When you start a new patrol there are no rendered ships and the SH3 engine has to render them from placeholders in the _SCR layer, so there is no harbour bug.

If you then save the game in the harbour and load from the savegame, the ships have already been rendered once and SH3 'remembers' them as rendered ships (not placeholders) therefore you get the harbour bug.

The issue is not with the _SCR file, it's with where and when you save your game, and bear in mind that ships are rendered from the SCR layer in the last few seconds before the game starts (about 95% through the load bar). RND is about 50% of the way through the load bar. It's easy enough to test - script a standalone ship (e.g. one of VonDos') into the SCR layer then disable the ship in JSGME. CTD @ 95-100% of load bar. Script into RND and CTD around the 50-60% mark.

I'm also fairly sure that there are a finite number of rendered ships that a savegame can cope with:
A few rendered ships - no problem, waypoints saved (try it next time you see a single merchant)
More rendered ships - SH3 will remember the ships but ditch the waypoints (harbour bug).
Too many rendered ships - CTD (near large convoys etc.)

Unfortunately the number of ships the savegame system can cope with seems to be computer dependent. Those with top of the range computers will suffer fewer problems than those (like me) with old ones.

We seem to have derailed TGW's thread so apologies to TDW (and the rest of you!).
@LGN1 - if you'd like to continue this we should start our own thread for it.
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