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Old 01-07-2021, 02:59 AM   #1
entrippy
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Default Feature Request - Convoy Location Practice

Request:
A Convoy location problem generator based on the in game map tool to assist players in learning the dark art of convoy location finding.

Detail:
As with the actual game, a sub and convoy location is defined, with the convoy also having a heading and speed attribute (all hidden from player).

Unlike the normal game play, the player is restricted to the map screen, and time does not pass in real time, instead moving forward at set increments e.g 5 mins, when prompted, for a set number of intervals.

At each prompt, the player is asked to choose a heading and speed to move their sub ("none" being a valid option).

After input, time is incremented, the subs location on the map updated based on the inputed values, the convoys location is also updated based on its speed and heading, but this remains hidden, and a new bearing to the convoy, based on this updated relative position, is given.

After the max number of prompts is reached, the convoys origin, heading, path, and current location are revealed on the map.

During this entire exercise, the player is free to draw plots on the map the practice the steps of solving the navigation solution.

After the convoy course is revealed, the player is able to assess how close they were to a valid solution, if their planned intercept was workable or if they were entirely off the mark.

Options: It might be that someone who understands different approaches to solving convoy locations could justify making the interval length and count customisable, either for each problem, or even for each interval, but I'll leave that for the experts.

Justification:
There is nothing more satisfying than nailing trigonomic navigation problems or firing solutions. But while there is a tutorial on finding firing solutions with the TDC, the only way to practice convoy finding is in game, in real time. This can take between 3-10 mins wait between bearings, so 12-40 mins total (3 measurements+1 forecast).
Having the above as an inbuilt tutorial would allow players to step through the exercise of location finding, without the drawbacks of realtime and in game variables (being rushed to complete a step, waiting 5-10 mins for the next bearing, spending 20-40 mins working and waiting just to find you got it wrong and have to start over, or having to account for unreliable hydrophone operators )

Existing solutions:
I have built something like this myself (https://github.com/entrippy/wolfpack-problem-generator), but the end result is inferior to a solution integrated in game as:
1. It's hard to replicate or find a close analog to the in game plotting tools that give the player distance and bearing feedback. My tool contains none, and just generates lat, long, and relative bearings. charting and mapping is left to the user.
2. Integrating the problem generator with any tools you do find is really clunky and introduces its own errors.
3. My problem generator uses one set of calculations or approximations for earth curvature and magnetic deviation that does not necessarily align with the calculations that the mapping solution might use, leading the the solutions to look.... odd and potentially gives false positives/negatives.
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Old 01-07-2021, 11:17 AM   #2
Pisces
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Remember that the game is a multiplayer game in the beginning. And you talk about the player in singular form, rather than plural. Each crew member would need to get something out of this gameplay, not just the Kaleun. And each of the 4 boats when there are multiple occupied.
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Old 01-07-2021, 09:40 PM   #3
entrippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pisces View Post
Remember that the game is a multiplayer game in the beginning. And you talk about the player in singular form, rather than plural. Each crew member would need to get something out of this gameplay, not just the Kaleun. And each of the 4 boats when there are multiple occupied.
Its true that this is a multiplayer game, but as with the TDC tutorial there are already existing components designed to teach an individual player, (not to mention the ability to play single player using friendly AI). So it is not unreasonable to suggest further content targeted at the individual. As such this is not intended to be a component of multiplay, but an addition to the games tutorial package for players to use individually, the benefit of which would be felt when they then go on to apply it in multiplayer missions.

The overall gist is that this kind of tutorial would be more effective if it had the benefit of assets/libraries/classes/functions that are available to the game, as opposed to trying to create an external analog that mimics it poorly.

I made no attempt to suggest where and how this might be made accessible once the application has been started as while I feel my idea has merit to help players get more value out of the game, the developers, would know best how to best accomplish this in line with the code base and their overall vision.
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Old 01-08-2021, 12:05 AM   #4
Aktungbby
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Default Welcome aboard!

entrippy! nice posts.
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Old 01-17-2021, 01:28 AM   #5
mobucks
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start game

use scope to look for visual contact

if no visual, dive to periscope depth

use hydrophone to locate sound bearing of convoy

surface to that bearing going full speed

wait 5 minutes

if no visual contact is made in that time, dive and listen again, adjust course as needed and repeat the last two steps

IMO you're over complicating something that isnt too hard to do in this game. The Silent Hunter games was harder.
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Old 01-17-2021, 05:17 PM   #6
entrippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobucks View Post
start game

use scope to look for visual contact

if no visual, dive to periscope depth

use hydrophone to locate sound bearing of convoy

surface to that bearing going full speed

wait 5 minutes

if no visual contact is made in that time, dive and listen again, adjust course as needed and repeat the last two steps

IMO you're over complicating something that isnt too hard to do in this game. The Silent Hunter games was harder.
Have you tried to do this while moving yourself?
There is an entirely different set of triangulation steps that can be performed while on the move, but they are far more complex to master, for example take a look at the later/Alternative methods mentioned in here

http://ricojansen.nl/downloads/Four_...2C%20Neuro.pdf

Sorry if I didn't make this clear, the stationary approach is simple and does not require any additional guidance, but to say that everything should end with the stationary method is an over simplification.

If you're wondering WHY someone might want to use these alternative methods; firstly, they can reduce time to contact by allowing the boat to manoeuvre while solving, and secondly.... just because.
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Old 01-18-2021, 04:33 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by entrippy View Post
Have you tried to do this while moving yourself?
I would consider myself one of the most experienced skippers that still plays Wolfpack. 1200 hours played.

Three bearing method, triangulation etc. is a colossal waste of time in wolfpack, because you can't fast forward time. (and you start very close to convoy anyway)

Just dive, listen, drive. You will get a visual sooner or later. Convoy located. No math.

If you can see ships, and are lucky enough to have a good navigator on the plot, you can get their course using the scope by taking range and bearing.
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Old 01-19-2021, 04:29 AM   #8
entrippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobucks View Post
I would consider myself one of the most experienced skippers that still plays Wolfpack. 1200 hours played.

Three bearing method, triangulation etc. is a colossal waste of time in wolfpack...
This is very useful context, thanks! I admit I do look at Wolfpack's gameplay beyond what is currently there and play it as though it was a first person, multiplayer Silent Hunter. I enjoy playing the long game, taking time to solve the convoys hading speed and location before setting up intercepts that don't put me in close visual range until I'm running in to set my attack.

If wolfpacks gameplay is not planned to move beyond the current arrangement (missions scenarios centre around starting in close proximity to a convoy with the players only requirement to organise the final approach and kill), then I agree that my suggestion is probably a waste of time.

That said, if there are plans to run scenario's that start at greater ranges including initially diverging paths, then I think that this suggestion would help reduce the frustration of trying to learn an interesting skill, with a shortened and more informative feedback loop.
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Old 01-19-2021, 05:11 PM   #9
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I can't disagree with what you're saying, I just don't want to play a session that takes that long.

The advise I'm giving reminds me of a saying they used to say at work:

"Give the laziest guy the hardest job, and he'll find the easiest way to do it"

Cheers man.
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Old 02-21-2021, 05:48 PM   #10
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So, what isn't clear is if this is referring to the hunt or the attack.

For the hunt, it's going to take some time - a half hour or more real time, in order to get a sense of the target motion, if they are at a goodly distance. The only ways to do that are all time-intensive. Match speed and course. Take multiple range/bearing pairs to get course and speed. Get your sonar y to give you info. All of them are designed to lead you to one thing - an intercept course and an overhaul (if needed). They just happen to be less accurate the further away you are and get better with more data points.

The attack is relatively easy once you've got an intercept course - get within a reasonable range, ensure your TDC is updated with more data, and stay undetected.

For me, plotting is the easiest method to obtain AoB and speed. Two ranges and bearings plotted 3.25 minutes apart gives you course and speed - and you can get AoB from the plot too. I'll take another pair closer in and one last set at around 15 degrees off of the expected firing bearing.

If you can plot range and bearing points, you don't need to be stopped to obtain speed. You only need 10 seconds or so each time to pop up the scope to get these two points.
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