Not the next subsim.... sadly.

[Damo]

It's been a long time since I came to these forums and posted. It's also a long time since I played SH3/5, but that has now changed, and it's all thanks to the new Uboat game. Thankfully, I didn't pay for the game myself, a friend who is on holiday was a backer and as I was housesitting while he's on holiday he said I might want to try it as it was 'right up my street'. So I did, and here's what I think;


First of all, it should never have been released, EA or not, at this point. It needs a good 4-6 months of further development purely to make it playable. It has so many game breaking bugs that literally force you to start a new game it reminds me more of a technical demo than a £20+ game. I know all releases have issues but I found myself thinking so many times that the devs MUST be playtesting the game, along with the Alpha testers and yet someone decided it was ready for release when it so obviously isn't. Whoever made that decision obviously had their eyes set on the cash if you ask me.


Subsims are a niche, and I can see what they are trying to achieve here to open it up to a broader audience, but it's sloppy and some things are obviously down to a lack of knowledge or research. I know it's a small thing but Union Jacks and Maple Leaves for British and Canadian flags? Historical accuracy obviously isn't a priority here. Planes turn on a dime and cover miles in seconds, AI get stuck on each other/the sub so you have to spend time manually moving them. First person is merely a novelty that makes actual play a frustrating affair and the camera in section mode is infuriating. I found myself getting actually angry at trying to navigate around and that is without even mentioning the bugs.


So the bugs, which eventually will be sorted (hopefully), have NO PLACE in a released game, an alpha, yes, but this is why it should have been held back for a good few months. Save games regularly corrupted, upgrades cause you to get stuck in the upgrade interface so you have to save and reload, I even had 2 instances where the map stopped working, forcing me to start again from scratch. Not being able to add crew to one of the officers, 50% of the crew got tuberculosis while I was still in port, ships not sinking after their HP is zero and shooting them with a coup de grace or with the deck gun has no effect whatsoever, although it gives you the credit for 'sinking' it. Sound bugs where you lose all sound, deck gun gets stuck so you can't aim, no deck or flak gun ammo in your warehouse at port or if there is it's like 3-6 deck gun rounds, helpful...


You're forced to load torpedoes into storage and then wait for your guy to load them so you can then top up the reserves. Crew recruitment is a mess, 2 separate screens for recruits and your active crew that should all be implemented onto one interface. I like the side missions aside from your patrol grid but I travelled 1000km to the other side of my grid to help a fellow UBoat only to find it 2km inland in Portugal, said they needed spare parts, I'd say they grossly underestimated their predicament.


All in all a VERY frustrating experience and after about 12+ hours of play I find myself having to yet AGAIN start over due to my save not loading without CTD. The most I managed was 3 patrols involving a LOT of saving and reloading and even more sifting through the Steam Bugs forums trying to find fixes/workarounds for all the issues. My jaw literally hurts from grinding my teeth so much.

I WANT to like it, the SH series requires a fairly lengthy play session to get anything from it and this game will provide a much easier way into the genre, maybe even bringing more players to SH and these forums but in all honesty this game as it stands is trash. I'm not angry at the game, it has the potential to be fixed eventually but I AM angry at Deep Water Studio for unleashing this pile of ****e in this state, it's an all too common thing nowadays and Early Access should be outlawed. Crowd Funding, Kickstarters and Indie Projects are fine, but to knowingly ask people to pay this sort of money for something so broken is a blight on the games industry. Personally I'd like to see all EA titles be forced to accept refunds right up until full release, at least that way the consumer doesn't get screwed in the rear end by cash grabbing devs.


Hopefully it will come good in the end, I do play SH5 after all, even though that was only saved by the good people here, so I wish it the best, but they won't be getting my money anytime soon, I'll rely on you bunch to tell me when I should give it another chance, if it ever earns that right. If you're thinking of buying this game and you've played the SH series, do your self a favour and like me, install SH5 WOS, it's the only saving grace of this game, that it gave me the subsim itch again.


Regards,
Damo. o7

[Hjalfnar]

If you think it shouldn't have been released this way, you did not understand Early Access in the first place. EA is specifically there to release an unfinished game to an audience that is willing to pay for exactly that, early access to an unfinished game, and help the often small dev studios to find and iron out the bugs and balancing problems. Before EA release backers got 1 patch per week sometimes, often 1 patch per month. Since EA release they got so many reports they hammered out 4 major patches in just a few days, only now taking a break and instead preparing one huge patch for next week.

I have played my fair share of alphas, betas and early access titles. This is one of the better ones, especially considering that the dev team is only 3 men strong. Everytime someone comes up with "game wasn't ready for EA"...well, THAT WAS THE POINT! To find the problems you have to get feedback, and the small backers group could only do so much. In my opinion UBOAT is on an excellent way, especially when in June/July the modding tools will be released and all the wonderful people that helped us enjoy the SH games will be able to hop aboard and help create the probably best subsim game of all times.

[fullmetaledges]

Originally Posted by Damo

Subsims are a niche, and I can see what they are trying to achieve here to open it up to a broader audience, but it's sloppy and some things are obviously down to a lack of knowledge or research. I know it's a small thing but Union Jacks and Maple Leaves for British and Canadian flags? Historical accuracy obviously isn't a priority here.

The flags are temporary placeholders. You know still in alpha.

Originally Posted by Damo

I'm not angry at the game, it has the potential to be fixed eventually but I AM angry at Deep Water Studio for unleashing this pile of ****e in this state, it's an all too common thing nowadays and Early Access should be outlawed. Crowd Funding, Kickstarters and Indie Projects are fine, but to knowingly ask people to pay this sort of money for something so broken is a blight on the games industry.

This was a kickstarter project. I would prefer the market decide what games are successful and at what state studios should release their games instead of laws.

I don't understand how some people don't get that software in alpha is going to need tweaks and has bugs.

[Damo]

I take your points on board, to be honest I was mighty frustrated at the time of posting and may have had a few beers on top. I do understand early access and to be honest I didn't realise it was just a 3 man team. There are points to this game that really are a breath of fresh air, things I wish I could have access to in SH5 like the bilge system, the electrics and crew interaction. I like micromanagement in games which is why I was drawn to this when my friend explained it.



I don't think it will ever go to the exacting depths of SH, at least not for a very long time but it also will have that sit down and play an hour that SH can't do. Most devs don't want to touch military sim games because of the high standards their fans demand, so I should go a bit easier on a studio that took the risk anyway. I was going to just delete the post but I know there'll be others that will be in the same boat (boot?) that will benefit from any discussion that comes from this thread. For the record, I just bought it, but I won't be downloading it for a while, I will keep my eyes on the forums and YouTube to tell me when I should delve back in.


I have another 2 days at my friends place and I have learned to save often and test things before setting out on patrol, if it's broke, reload to before you did the thing that broke it etc. I just had an experience where I got attacked by a Sunderland and my sub almost flooded completely, I was able to close the bulkheads and get half the crew to safety as I came to rest at 180 metres on the bottom. Creaking and crunching was ever present as I and my crew battled to pump the water out over the next hour or so, I couldn't open the forward hatch in the Control Room cos of the pressure from the flooded front compartments so I had to blow the tanks and hope for the best, a real Das Boot moment. We made it home and I realised that you actually get attached to the crew and it changed my outlook.



I hope development progress is quick. After what happened with SH5 on release I think a lot of people can be forgiven for being pessimistic about new sub games, hopefully this one will come good.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Damo

We made it home and I realised that you actually get attached to the crew and it changed my outlook.

That is one of the reasons I still prefer SH3 over SH4 and SH5 - the fact that the crew all have names and I begin to know them, encourage them and mourn them.

That is also the reason that I will be getting this one as soon as I have the money to spare. It's looking more and more to me that with a little TLC both of the new sub sims have a chance to truly shine. Each in its completely different way, of course.

[bmaxa]

Originally Posted by Damo

It's been a long time since I came to these forums and posted. It's also a long time since I played SH3/5, but that has now changed, and it's all thanks to the new Uboat game. Thankfully, I didn't pay for the game myself, a friend who is on holiday was a backer and as I was housesitting while he's on holiday he said I might want to try it as it was 'right up my street'. So I did, and here's what I think;


First of all, it should never have been released,

Regards,
Damo. o7

I disagree. Having a blast with this game, and haven't played any subsim for years...
Whta I like most is that devs listen to people and are quick to fix bugs. Also they listen suggestions. When you start game it says final version could be something completely different then current version.

[JU_88]

Yeah, if it was released too early it was because they were fast running out of funds - also because it was a year behind schedule and people were begging for it to be released. So not a 'cash grab' out of greed but necessity & demand.

Its funny. Compare the posts on steam before and after release (bear in mind many of these type of comments were written by actual grown men which is ... disturbing):

before:
'just release it already, i don't care if it has a ton of bugs- i'll pay double, I just wanna play it now. This starting to look like a kick starter scam.'

After:
'OMG! This is just unplayable, no way they should have released it in this state, I'm a paying customer, I didn't sign up to be a free QA tester bla bla bla -this is just another broken EA scam!.
(the fact that Steam offers refunds somehow escapes them)

So there you go, Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[XLjedi]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Yeah, if it was released to early it was probabaly because they were fast running out of funds - also because it was year behind schedule and people were begging for it to be released. So not a 'cash grab' out of greed but necessity.

Its funny. Compare the posts on steam before and after release (bear in mind many of these type of comments were written by actual grown men which is ... disturbing):

before:
'just release it already, i don't care if it has a ton of bugs- i just wanna play it now. This starting to look like a kick starter scam.'

After:
'OMG! This is just unplayable, no way they should have released it in this state, this is just another broken EA scam!. (proceeds to write a negative review)

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well... in some fairness... after 4 years of development... maybe 3 or more in hyping and so forth. It was actually starting to look like a kickstarter scam. Also, not entirely sure if there was a connection between the PC game and the boardgame UBoot that moved thru kickstarter at the same time? Seems the gameplay of both are strikingly similar.

I'm not opposed to the early release and waiting a bit for the bugs to be squashed. My main concern with this game is the overall clumsy UI design. I don't know how much of it can be patched/fixed over time and how much of it is now just too embedded into the overall design such that it will always feel clumsy to me.

[JU_88]

Yeah but the difference is, you wrote it as level headed critique just there^ many didn't - they behaved like children and applied double standards.

[Ledenko]

This is the game that got me to try SH5 and brought me to Subsim (Hi, Subsim!)

I loved kickstarter when it first appeared but I got burned out pretty fast when the few projects I actually backed all had nothing but delays and issues and I never got what I kickstarted.

Honestly, the whole early access/kickstarter business is mostly a disappointment and well executed projects are more of an exception.

I have to admit I like what this tiny team is doing though, I'm enjoying the game and the team is very responsive, I subscribed to the unstable branch on steam and there are daily updates that brought the game from a buggy, unplayable mess to a buggy, playable state.
There are still a bunch of issues, I agree the UX is pretty bad and the time compression settings in travel mode are annoying. Plus it seems 5kt convoys are super fast in travel mode as well so it can be hard to catch them at flank speed.
There's other stuff too, plenty of it, but I have high hopes for the game.

Now I just need to find enough courage to give wolfpack a go.

[bmaxa]

Originally Posted by Ledenko

This is the game that got me to try SH5 and brought me to Subsim (Hi, Subsim!)

I loved kickstarter when it first appeared but I got burned out pretty fast when the few projects I actually backed all had nothing but delays and issues and I never got what I kickstarted.

Honestly, the whole early access/kickstarter business is mostly a disappointment and well executed projects are more of an exception.

I have to admit I like what this tiny team is doing though, I'm enjoying the game and the team is very responsive, I subscribed to the unstable branch on steam and there are daily updates that brought the game from a buggy, unplayable mess to a buggy, playable state.
There are still a bunch of issues, I agree the UX is pretty bad and the time compression settings in travel mode are annoying. Plus it seems 5kt convoys are super fast in travel mode as well so it can be hard to catch them at flank speed.
There's other stuff too, plenty of it, but I have high hopes for the game.

Now I just need to find enough courage to give wolfpack a go.

I catched convoy which traveled away from 2000km distance on standard speed.

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by Ledenko

Now I just need to find enough courage to give wolfpack a go.

Please do! I have not bought UBOAT, not sure I will prior to future heavy modding, but I can vouch for WP. Many of us, including Subsim’s founder Neal (Onkel Neal) are willing to assist and train new players. We meet Friday nights US Central time and we’re always happy to get new people! So please consider!

Ok WP discussion done, no intention of derailing this thread onto Wolfpack.