Uniforms: U.S. Navy utilities (dungarees) in WWII

[Arlo]

While enjoying the mods I'm using (and appreciating the rest), I thought some discussion over authenticity might be in order. Being third gen USN (grandfather WWII era, father VietNam era, self 1981-1987) there's not too much I've missed, regarding what was worn. Never the less, I scoured the web to see if there were exceptions I missed. For the most part, it confirmed what I know.

There were no rank insignia displayed on dungarees no matter what rank involved.



























All the images above should either be pictures or artwork depicting the common sailor in dungarees during WWII. No rank markings. After WWII crows began to be applied to dungarees (iron ons during my and my dad's time in). They were on the left sleeve, only one. E-1, E-2 and E-3 (Seaman Recruit, Seaman Apprentice and Seaman) were finally differentiated with shoulder hashes but only on dress uniforms. Prior to that, those ranks were only indicated by a white shoulder stripe on dress blues and a black one on the whites.

Post WWII crow use:









Chiefs wore dungarees as their working uniform at sea. The only indicator of their rank was their Chief's hat (which was more than enough):











This surprises me, however. I ran across a picture of officers in dungarees:



Sand pebbles depicted USN uniforms of the 1920s accurately:





I only mention this because many here are interested in authenticity but some might not be aware of the changes from WWII to 1987 (lots of things are different now from the time I served:


(Navy working uniform - type 1)


(Navy 'Charlies')

As mentioned earlier, I enjoy and appreciate the mods offered on SubSim. I'm currently enjoying FOTRSU very much and the uniforms aren't a deal breaker and far be it for me to be hyper critical when I don't create mods
(beyond my pay grade). Just throwing this out there because it seems these details are not known to some here (or maybe this detail isn't a deal breaker for most here).



- Jay aka Arlo aka Matt T Sherman

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Arlo

While enjoying the mods I'm using (and appreciating the rest), I thought some discussion over authenticity might be in order. Being third gen USN (grandfather WWII era, father VietNam era, self 1981-1987) there's not too much I've missed, regarding what was worn. Never the less, I scoured the web to see if there were exceptions I missed. For the most part, it confirmed what I know.

There were no rank insignia displayed on dungarees no matter what rank involved.



























All the images above should either be pictures or artwork depicting the common sailor in dungarees during WWII. No rank markings. After WWII crows began to be applied to dungarees (iron ons during my and my dad's time in). They were on the left sleeve, only one. E-1, E-2 and E-3 (Seaman Recruit, Seaman Apprentice and Seaman) were finally differentiated with shoulder hashes but only on dress uniforms. Prior to that, those ranks were only indicated by a white shoulder stripe on dress blues and a black one on the whites.

Post WWII crow use:









Chiefs wore dungarees as their working uniform at sea. The only indicator of their rank was their Chief's hat (which was more than enough):











This surprises me, however. I ran across a picture of officers in dungarees:



Sand pebbles depicted USN uniforms of the 1920s accurately:





I only mention this because many here are interested in authenticity but some might not be aware of the changes from WWII to 1987 (lots of things are different now from the time I served:


(Navy working uniform - type 1)


(Navy 'Charlies')

As mentioned earlier, I enjoy and appreciate the mods offered on SubSim. I'm currently enjoying FOTRSU very much and the uniforms aren't a deal breaker and far be it for me to be hyper critical when I don't create mods
(beyond my pay grade). Just throwing this out there because it seems these details are not known to some here (or maybe this detail isn't a deal breaker for most here).



- Jay aka Arlo aka Matt T Sherman

Great thread. Thanks. Also in TMO CPO's wear the appropriate dungarees with Chief's cap only in lieu of khakis so it has been done. Crew composition, clothing, especially for the colder environments (deck watch in short sleeves operating off Japan in winter or in the Aleutians, Okhotsk etc looks silly.

[Arlo]

Thanks BH. I saw no response at first and was worried I stepped on toes or overstepped with this thread. I can manage some creative immersion tweaking to close the separation between historical reality and the game. After all, we are in essence playing an alternate WWII 'reality' to begin with (we are assigned boats under names we choose for commander, names assigned to crew that aren't the actual crew, bases that our boats didn't start at (or did at a different date), sinking ships that either were lost in a different manner and time or not lost at all. And I accept all of that as a matter of practicality (and fun). So, if I imagine that my crew went a little overboard with their uniform markers or that chiefs were able to somehow pack enough khakis to wear them on subs without too much fear of ruining them. Or even officers occasionally wearing a mixture of uniform (perhaps due to their khakis being ruined while conducting unusual duties) then that's just a little bit more reality bending and not that big a deal (in my mind's eye I can ignore that, somewhat). Even seeing some third classes sneak some rack time in the chiefs or even officer's bunk doesn't merit mention to the COB. (With the FOTRSU officer's quarters addition - which I'm mighty glad to see.)

So this discussion isn't a critique born of disgust or malice. Just a FOTRSU head's up.

(I noticed the difference, regarding TMO - which I also enjoy, very much!)

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Thanks BH. I saw no response at first and was worried I stepped on toes or overstepped with this thread. I can manage some creative immersion tweaking to close the separation between historical reality and the game. After all, we are in essence playing an alternate WWII 'reality' to begin with (we are assigned boats under names we choose for commander, names assigned to crew that aren't the actual crew, bases that our boats didn't start at (or did at a different date), sinking ships that either were lost in a different manner and time or not lost at all. And I accept all of that as a matter of practicality (and fun). So, if I imagine that my crew went a little overboard with their uniform markers or that chiefs were able to somehow pack enough khakis to wear them on subs without too much fear of ruining them. Or even officers occasionally wearing a mixture of uniform (perhaps due to their khakis being ruined while conducting unusual duties) then that's just a little bit more reality bending and not that big a deal (in my mind's eye I can ignore that, somewhat). Even seeing some third classes sneak some rack time in the chiefs or even officer's bunk doesn't merit mention to the COB. (With the FOTRSU officer's quarters addition - which I'm mighty glad to see.)

So this discussion isn't a critique born of disgust or malice. Just a FOTRSU head's up.

(I noticed the difference, regarding TMO - which I also enjoy, very much!)

You did not step on any toes. Immersion is a big part of this sim, if it did not matter we would all be running a arcade style shoot em up type deal.

Suggestions, contributions, etc are a big part of this community and have always seemed welcome. Which is why SH 4 is still very much alive all these years after it's release in such terrible shape.

MY person view is to be in line with reality, Officers in khakis , chiefs in dungarees except their chiefs cap, the crew same, a few variations but still. A bug need to solve in TMO is the officers collar insignia displaying incorrectly. Meaning Lieutenants usually show up as a single gold bar as does JG's or sometime JG will have LT bars. I could be happy eliminating the collar insignia from many interviews most did not wear them at sea, everyone knew who they were. Also , TMO is desperately in need of cold weather clothing, for immersion. Looks and feels silly in the sim when patrolling in winter off japan or in sea of okhotsk etc and crew is not wearing parkas, sweaters, watch caps, peacoats etc. Long ago someone made a mod, had said would do a TMO version but forget who and but have been unable to locate it. There are screenshots of it for U boats, so sure could have it for fleetboat crews.There is a pseudo cold weather clothing mod, but it just puts the rain coats and caps on and primarily only works for S boats. Does not work on Gato/ etc, did get it to work on porpoise class but next patrol when went to south pacific, some crew still had the coats on, even though I deactivated the mod. Last patrol I was on Sea of Japan in September-October 1943 and decided in lieu of exiting la perouse strait, would go north and exit soviet waters via Tartarskiy Strait (almost hit the minefield lol). Once made it in that area, heavy seas, saw some icebergs, skies had that polar look but crew was in short sleeves etc lol. Bit of an immersion killer.

[propbeanie]

The enlisted's "insignia" is on certain dds files in the Textures folder, as is are other parts of their "uniforms", and easy enough to change by either putting original Stock files back in, or by altering the "calls" for the same in the CrewMembers3D.upc file. If you are referring specifically to FotRSU, there is a plan to offer "clothing" as at least 2 add-in mods. Currently though, there are more important items on the table to be modded.

[David I]

In SH3 World this issue was brought up and one of the many talented modders made a "No Insignia and No Medals" Mod" which I use all the time.

I hope that one of the modders of SH4 will read this thread and rectify the situation for you.

David I

[flaminus]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Also , TMO is desperately in need of cold weather clothing, for immersion. Looks and feels silly in the sim when patrolling in winter off japan or in sea of okhotsk etc and crew is not wearing parkas, sweaters, watch caps, peacoats etc.

Ahoy Bubblehead1980, I think there already a mod for TMO cold weather clothing--> https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=3779

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by flaminus

Ahoy Bubblehead1980, I think there already a mod for TMO cold weather clothing--> https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=3779

Thanks for the link. I tried that one before, unfortunately as it says it is for S boats and does not work with fleetboat crews, causes issues. Looking for mod for fleetboats when patrolling Aleutians, Kuriles, Sea of Okhotsk. In TMO upgrade I am working on, good hunting in the Okhotsk at certain times , immersion though killer to not have crew in appropriate gear lol.

[flaminus]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Thanks for the link. I tried that one before, unfortunately as it says it is for S boats and does not work with fleetboat crews, causes issues. Looking for mod for fleetboats when patrolling Aleutians, Kuriles, Sea of Okhotsk. In TMO upgrade I am working on, good hunting in the Okhotsk at certain times , immersion though killer to not have crew in appropriate gear lol.

Yes, it's only for S boat, but it's easy to copy relevant code form S boat files to other fleetboats files. The most important code is the "bust_m04", which represent the thick black jacket.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by flaminus

Yes, it's only for S boat, but it's easy to copy relevant code form S boat files to other fleetboats files. The most important code is the "bust_m04", which represent the thick black jacket.

True, I'll put it on the list of things to do for TMO upgrade lol