[WIP] Fairmile B Motor Launch

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by gap

Thank you Jeff, cool stuff indeed!



Do you mean problems like the wokman hammering Doenitz's welding gun lol?

That and see through walls!

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Thanks I found two of those links already but missed the Canadian Navy one. And yes, this variety of possible configurations is one reason why this ship might be interesting for SH5 - with just small modifications to base 3D model and modelling some custom weapons, one can have several very different vessels added to the game.

Awesome

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Speaking of custom weapons, by using what I learned from you and Jeff I was able to make a functional custom Y-gun today (with just 7 reloads per barrel instead of 40 like in SH4 version, which was far too many for such a small ship) and a DC chute (also with very limited ammo). They're both very crude and not textured yet, but at least they work!

You have read in my mind. Yesterday I exported Sh5's Y-gun meshes. They have a better resolution than SHIII-IV ones, though I am not fully sure about their accuracy: that model looks to me like a US K-gun minus one leg.

According to navweaps.com, there were three Y-gun models saw active service, the Marks 1, 5 and 8, the first of them being delivered in 1917. I have found a digitalized version of the Ordnance Pamphlet n. 63 dated October 1918, covering Mark 1 of the so called Y-gun. From pictures included in that document, the Y-gun by Ubisoft brings only a vague resemblance with the real thing. Something else should be considered though: the first Fairmile B motor launch was completed in October 1940, before Y guns were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the K-gun, and it is likely that she would have fitted with a later Mark Y-gun. Unfortunately I couldn't find any picture of Marks 5 and 8, so I have no idea whether they looked more like the Mark 1 Y-gun, or like the SH5 rendition. Do you have more information on that?

One last remark: in SH games, the "saddles" that depth charges rest on when loaded on their throwers, are part of the throwers themselves, and they stay in place after the DCs have been launched. In reality, though, that plate was part of the arbor thrown together with the charges when the projector was fired. Maybe that will be clearer after seeing the pictures and reading the details explained in another OP.
The arbor itself was set so that it detached itself from its DC during the flight. I don't think we can simulate that in game, but if we set arbors as a (separate) part of Y/K-gun-thrown DC models, we can make them to become invisible once they enter the water. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

That and see through walls!

Fixing that shouldn't be too complicated. For sure lesser complicated than giving a proper training the dumb KM worker lol...

[propbeanie]

Seems to my recollection that there are several ToobYu vidz of corvettes "throwing" depth charges with a Y-gun, and the plates you speak of do go with the charge, sometimes separating as they fly... but I do not recall if the Y-guns themselves are in the vidz. Maybe a search on "depth charge attack" or something similar might yield results?

... and, of course, they don't know what a depth charge what a hedge hog what a squid is... lol

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by gap

Awesome




The arbor itself was set so that it detached itself from its DC during the flight. I don't think we can simulate that in game, but if we set arbors as a (separate) part of Y/K-gun-thrown DC models, we can make them to become invisible once they enter the water. What do you think?

Being the DC flight is hard coded I thought, (But never tested) if we were to add a hidden barrel with the arbor as the shell maybe we could come up with something.

There are places to add animations in the sims and I'm kind of sure I'm the best Guy for Animation work bar none!
I qualify that statement from my work with animations in SH3 and SH4. I've never discussed what I can do with SH5 animations.

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Seems to my recollection that there are several ToobYu vidz of corvettes "throwing" depth charges with a Y-gun, and the plates you speak of do go with the charge, sometimes separating as they fly...

Yes, to the best of my understanding that's exactly how those arbors (= plate + hub) were meant to work. The following drawing from OP 831 is a good representation of it:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

but I do not recall if the Y-guns themselves are in the vidz. Maybe a search on "depth charge attack" or something similar might yield results?

... and, of course, they don't know what a depth charge what a hedge hog what a squid is... lol

Even a picture or a drawing of a Y-gun with a caption clearly stating thrower's mark would be enough. The few pictures I have found date back to WWI, and they all are likely relative to the Mark 1. If someone else finds pictures, drawings, videos or other documents relative to other marks, please let me know here

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Being the DC flight is hard coded I thought, (But never tested) if we were to add a hidden barrel with the arbor as the shell maybe we could come up with something.

There are places to add animations in the sims and I'm kind of sure I'm the best Guy for Animation work bar none!
I qualify that statement from my work with animations in SH3 and SH4. I've never discussed what I can do with SH5 animations.

I can be wrong, but I think that, similar to shells ballistic trajectories, DCs flights are calculated in game rather than mere animations. At this point I am curious to know whether the DC barrels we see in flight are the ones stored as submodels of the Y-gun equipment or the ones specified as ammo in the KGun controller, but that's easily tested

[Jeff-Groves]

All trails will lead you to realize there is only the barrels for the different DC weapons.K and Y fire so you have a fire effect which is just smoke.
DC rack has an animation of the barrels rolling but nothing more.
So it's hard code that controls the toss from Y and K.
Given the rack does not play the animations till active? Maybe animations added to the Y Barrels may not play till active.
There is where we may be able to add.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

All trails will lead you to realize there is only the barrels for the different DC weapons.

So if didn't misunderstand you, 'ammo' barrels only spawn when 'dummy' barrels (i.e. the ones included in the different DC weapons as part of their 3D model) touch water, which means that the barrels we see flying in the air are the 'dummy' ones.

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

K and Y fire so you have a fire effect which is just smoke.

I open a parenthesis here: as shown by the following picture (firing demonstrations aboard the museum ship USS Slater), there should be an initial burst of flames too, but probably it would be so short that the naked eye would seldom notice it.

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

DC rack has an animation of the barrels rolling but nothing more.
So it's hard code that controls the toss from Y and K.
Given the rack does not play the animations till active? Maybe animations added to the Y Barrels may not play till active.
There is where we may be able to add.

I think I got your point: animated DC barrels which separate from their arbors before they touch water

Indeed, your idea is very cool and it might actually work for older SH games, but as far as SH5 is concerned there are two huge problem: unless you have made a an amazing progress with gr2 file editing we have no way to create granny animations, and the keyframe animations used in SHIII and SHIV for DC rack effects, are not triggered at the right time in SH5 but they play in an endless loop:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...53#post2621353

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

Something else should be considered though: the first Fairmile B motor launch was completed in October 1940, before Y guns were rendered obsolete by the introduction of the K-gun, and it is likely that she would have fitted with a later Mark Y-gun. Unfortunately I couldn't find any picture of Marks 5 and 8, so I have no idea whether they looked more like the Mark 1 Y-gun, or like the SH5 rendition. Do you have more information on that?

Firstly, for the photos of Y-guns used on Fairmile boats (and frankly all kinds of armament used on them), check out this link:

http://www.rcnfairmiles.com/category...ction/armament

Now, the description under these photos says "Y-gun Mk.III" which seem weird considering source you've posted, but it might be a mistake or different naming used by British/Canadian navies than USN.

From photos I've found, initial 1940 Fairmiles didn't seem to carry Y-guns at all. Oldest photo I came across that clearly shows Y-gun on deck is a boat launched in 1942, and photo itself might be from even later time. It's pure speculation, but my working theory is that as Y-guns were replaced in front line ships by K-guns during the war, the surplus Y-guns filling the stocks might have been gradually bolted onto coastal vessels like Fairmile. That's why my plan was to make Y-gun available from late 1941 and before that have it only carry DC chutes.

----
Apart from weapons, I encountered some other bugs to squash. Posting a list here in case you might know solutions for those

- Trying to add obj_Funnel controller invariably gives me CTD. So no luck adding funnel smoke for now.
- Blowing up fuel tank causes weird effect: ship is "blinking" several times (disappearing for a split second), then texture changes into incomprehensible mess with many parts transparent and others showing black "damaged" mask and a second later ship disappears.
- I noticed Y-gun to have "ASW Weapon" zone type in damage editor, does it mean weapons can be made destructible? That would be cool (imagining desperate player forced to surface and then managing to blow up DC rack with a flak gun )
- Water spray at bow and stern appears and disappears seemingly at random when ship goes at high speed.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Firstly, for the photos of Y-guns used on Fairmile boats (and frankly all kinds of armament used on them), check out this link:

http://www.rcnfairmiles.com/category...ction/armament

Now, the description under these photos says "Y-gun Mk.III" which seem weird considering source you've posted, but it might be a mistake or different naming used by British/Canadian navies than USN.

Excellent, that's more or less the kind of pictures I was looking for!

The US naming for the different Y-gun models is: 'Depth Charge Projector', followed by the mark number and the lettering 'Y-Gun' in brackets, so the numbering is relative to all the types of DC throwers in US inventory, including Y-guns, K-guns, and a number of experimental DC launching devices that never entered service. It is likely that in commonwealth service the lettering 'Y Gun Mk III' was equivalent to the US Mark 7, i.e. the final mark of Y-Guns. If my speculation is true, from the pictures contained in your link we must conclude that the different Y-gun marks had similar external appearance, and probably similar performances as far as can be simulated in a videogame.

On a side note, the model shown below is my rendition of a Y-gun that, for my own fun, yesterday I have drafted on the base of pictures pictures, drawings and sizes found in the OP that I had linked earlier here.



If you think it can be used, I will finish it and I will gladly share it with you together with various DC barrel meshes that I had modelled in the past.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

From photos I've found, initial 1940 Fairmiles didn't seem to carry Y-guns at all. Oldest photo I came across that clearly shows Y-gun on deck is a boat launched in 1942, and photo itself might be from even later time. It's pure speculation, but my working theory is that as Y-guns were replaced in front line ships by K-guns during the war, the surplus Y-guns filling the stocks might have been gradually bolted onto coastal vessels like Fairmile. That's why my plan was to make Y-gun available from late 1941 and before that have it only carry DC chutes.

Sorry, I had not noticed that the Y-gun was a mid-war refit for Fairmiles. That considered, your speculation is perfectly plausible though it is likely that by the time K-guns entered service and Farmiles started being retrofitted with surplus Y-guns from bigger ASW vessels, older Y-gun marks had been scrapped and the most common type still in service was the Mark 7 (i.e. Mk III in Commonwealth service).

Originally Posted by kapuhy

- Trying to add obj_Funnel controller invariably gives me CTD. So no luck adding funnel smoke for now.

You are probably trying to attach obj_Funnel controller to an empty node. That controller must be attached to a node/bone with a 3D model, otherwise it will crash the game

Originally Posted by kapuhy

- Blowing up fuel tank causes weird effect: ship is "blinking" several times (disappearing for a split second), then texture changes into incomprehensible mess with many parts transparent and others showing black "damaged" mask and a second later ship disappears.

Dat unit textures going haywire in SH5 once the said units are damaged, is a well known problem. Try reading again the [TEC] thread that I pointed to you many times, starting from post #170 for possible fixes (make sure to read several posts after that, as finding a proper fix was a gradual process). I don't know if the suggested fixes will also iron out the "blinking" problem though, this is the first time I hear about it...

Originally Posted by kapuhy

- I noticed Y-gun to have "ASW Weapon" zone type in damage editor, does it mean weapons can be made destructible? That would be cool (imagining desperate player forced to surface and then managing to blow up DC rack with a flak gun )

Yes, you should check that the zone type you have mentioned as is 'Destructible' property set to 'Yes', in which case that equipment can be smashed out by a well aimed shell or bomb. If you assign a damage boxes to sub-parts (such as the second Y-gun arm), with some luck they can be ripped apart from the main equipment model. During my tests, it emerged that only damage boxes are required. Collision spheres on small equipment would redundant, as they would be entirely covered by the collision spheres of the main unit.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

- Water spray at bow and stern appears and disappears seemingly at random when ship goes at high speed.

Height of the bow spray node relative to the water line might play a role. Have a look into PT boat's bow spray, and try using similar settings on your unit

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by gap

So if didn't misunderstand you, 'ammo' barrels only spawn when 'dummy' barrels (i.e. the ones included in the different DC weapons as part of their 3D model) touch water, which means that the barrels we see flying in the air are the 'dummy' ones.



I open a parenthesis here: as shown by the following picture (firing demonstrations aboard the museum ship USS Slater), there should be an initial burst of flames too, but probably it would be so short that the naked eye would seldom notice it.





I think I got your point: animated DC barrels which separate from their arbors before they touch water

Indeed, your idea is very cool and it might actually work for older SH games, but as far as SH5 is concerned there are two huge problem: unless you have made a an amazing progress with gr2 file editing we have no way to create granny animations, and the keyframe animations used in SHIII and SHIV for DC rack effects, are not triggered at the right time in SH5 but they play in an endless loop:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...53#post2621353

I'm aware of the KeyFrameAnimations problems.
Since I don't play I'll ask a question.
Do you see people being tossed off the Ships when explosions happen?

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I'm aware of the KeyFrameAnimations problems.
Since I don't play I'll ask a question.
Do you see people being tossed off the Ships when explosions happen?

mmm, not in stock game. If you mean floating dead bodies from explosions, I think that's a FX updates feature, and life boats are not explosion-related: explosions or not, they spawn when a ship is completely destroyed.

Why do you ask?

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by gap

mmm, not in stock game. If you mean floating dead bodies from explosions, I think that's a FX updates feature, and life boats are not explosion-related: explosions or not, they spawn when a ship is completely destroyed.

Why do you ask?

I may have to do some tests but would like to know if MeshAnimations work where keyFrameAnimations don't.
Then there's the animations as done in parts of SH4 which is a whole other ball Game.

In Materials.dat there is a Guy used to show people being thrown by explosions.
It's even in the SH5 version. (just a carry over from SH3/4 I'm sure)
But does it work in SH5 I don't know.

SH4 also has animations for people and Guns that is NOT based on SH3 MeshAnimations.
Lets call them skeletal animations.
Those as far as I know have not been tested in SH5?

I'd think the likely reason would be one can not edit the SH4 style animations with S3D.
Those animations I had a thread on which explains how they work.
Never got around to seeing if I could write an add on for S3D to allow looking at them.
I just use 010 to play with them.
Same with the GR2 animations.

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I may have to do some tests but would like to know if MeshAnimations work where keyFrameAnimations don't.
Then there's the animations as done in parts of SH4 which is a whole other ball Game.

In Materials.dat there is a Guy used to show people being thrown by explosions.
It's even in the SH5 version. (just a carry over from SH3/4 I'm sure)
But does it work in SH5 I don't know.

SH4 also has animations for people and Guns that is NOT based on SH3 MeshAnimations.
Lets call them skeletal animations.
Those as far as I know have not been tested in SH5?

I'd think the likely reason would be one can not edit the SH4 style animations with S3D.
Those animations I had a thread on which explains how they work.
Never got around to seeing if I could write an add on for S3D to allow looking at them.
I just use 010 to play with them.
Same with the GR2 animations.

Interesting stuff. I never noticed that guy, but I am pretty sure that those animations haven't been used in SH5 yet. From your description of them, they seem more similar to granny animations than to SHIII's keyframe ones, so who knows, they might work in SH5 as well as in SHIV!

[Jeff-Groves]

I do know that most of the original works used to create SH3/4 units were just re-used for SH5. It's just they were exported with Granny and not Kashmir.
Plus a little extra work here and there before export.

That is not a guess but through years of contact with many of our Dev friends.

[Jeff-Groves]

Now. If you look at animations in SH4 for say the 20mmVierling_L.dat
Then look at animations for same Gun in SH5's 20mm_vierling_GER_L.gr2

I think you know what I'm seeing. The same animation just in a different format!
Being I can understand and edit the SH4 animations it was not a far cry to work with the GR2 animations.
Not perfected the way I do that but it's only me playing with the animation system for both SH4/5