The CHN/ China thread

[Skybird]

They will not stop there. Why should they, if bullying others works so well?

[mapuc]

USA is up to a tough job, trying to convince countries around South China sea that they have to give up.

I doubt countries like Japan, Philippines and Vietnam would let China take all this which belong to everyone.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

They will not stop there. Why should they, if bullying others works so well?

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

USA is up to a tough job, trying to convince countries around South China sea that they have to give up.
I doubt countries like Japan, Philippines and Vietnam would let China take all this which belong to everyone.

What can they do? Nobody of them is strong enough to survive a war with China at sea and in the air. Even if they build a defence union, I do not see that. Not to mention that China will not limit hostilities to purely traditional military means. Cyberattacks. Currency wars. Market manipulations. China will push them against the wall, and already does so.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

Yes. Now tell that the export-heavy Germans, and also the many other actors (including the US) weighing short-sighted profit interests and a dogma of "change by trade" as heavier . Here in Europe many are eager to not ease relations, because then all the heavy investments made there would be lost. And so they invest even deeper, and more. Nobody wants to face these losses, and so they ignore China'S aggressiveness.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

What can they do? Nobod yof them is strogn eogh to surirve a war witbChibna at sea and i n the air. Even if they build a defence union, I do not see that. Not to mentiin that China will not limit hostilities to purely traditional military means. Cyberattacks. Currency wars. Market manipulations.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your statement.

I only tried to tell USA is up to a hard diplomatically job convincing their allied to give what China demand.

USA and its allied could draw a line in the sand..but would this be a good thing ?

Markus

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I would have thought the best alternative to war would be for a large collective of countries to stop trading with them.

Good idea, but other than what Skybird said Germany and the West generally profits very well from producing and buying all kinds of stuff in China; german Bosch has transferred a lot of production to China as VW and others, the US with Apple but also steel industries, and the UK leading by example?

China replaces Germany as UK’s biggest import market

We got used to be able to buy cheap basic resources and meanwhile even high tech products made by workers that earn 40 cents an hour, while "the West" still demands the same old high prices from its western customers by selling chinese products; they are making billions that way.
China already switches to its local inland market to come to terms with future sanctions.

[Jimbuna]

Sooooo.......we're more or less buggered. Nothing can be done that will have a tangible or meaningful effect?

[Skybird]

The question is not what can be done, actually there are quite some things that could be done. The problem is the will and determination is lacking on all sides - except the Chinese side. Their determination is resolute.

China could be isolated. Its economy could be contained and suffocated. A military and war-ready alliance could be formed. Their bullying could be answered on equal terms. Their playgrounds at the UN and in the third world could be isolated and contained. Relations could be frozen. Travel restrictions implemented. Trade deals forbidden. Company cooperation prohibited. Military forces in the region massively beefed up. Cyberwar skills boosted. Tourism stopped.

Its not what could not be done. Its about what is not wanted to be done. doing it would ruin precious, long-held illusions. Many supersmart intelligence beasts would need to admit that they were wrong since decades. A mass extinction of narcissistic egos would follow. Or not - I mean shamelessness is a key ability of politicians.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The question is not what can be done, actually there are quite some things that could be done. The problem is the will and determination is lacking on all sides - except the Chinese side. Their determination is resolute.

China could be isolated. Its economy could be contained and suffocated. A military and war-ready alliance could be formed. Their bullying could be answered on equal terms. Their playgrounds at the UN and in the third world could be isolated and contained. Relations could be frozen. Travel restrictions implemented. Trade deals forbidden. Company cooperation prohibited. Military forces in the region massively beefed up. Cyberwar skills boosted. Tourism stopped.

Its not what could not be done. Its about what is not wanted to be done. doing it would ruin precious, long-held illusions. Many supersmart intelligence beasts would need to admit that they were wrong since decades. A mass extinction of narcissistic egos would follow. Or not - I mean shamelessness is a key ability of politicians.

Many things can be done to tell the Chinese leaders that their behavior is unacceptable - The question in such a case is...how will China interpret the step(s) this alliance may impose against China.

Because this is important.

YES we shall not sit tight and let China have what they want.
We must be prepared that China may see these step(you mentioned) as an act of war.

Markus

[Skybird]

Whether they go to war, is their decision - but we must anyway be absolutely willing and capable to fight a war and to retaliate in any way necessary. Both great force and a long breath are needed.

Else we can pack our things and leave the stage of world history immediately. Most of Europe has done exactly that, while the US, Britian, Taiwan, Japan dream of superiority of theirs that they once had, but probably no more have. One does not want to invest into keeping up to strength with China. China knows this, and thats why they keep on pushing. As I see it, the anti-China alliances in the region that are possible to think of, are impotent and are word monsters only. They lack the needed military muscle. China creates military facts on the ground/ocean. They become superior in technology, and in numbers. Europe will keep on helping them for long time to come, i think. To keep illusions alive. They are so cozy, you see, so precious, so fragile. Lets not provoke China, it might come at a price for Western companies selling the West out in China.

[mapuc]

Here's a science article.

According to reports, China wishes to build a high-speed, 13,000-kilometer (8,078-mile) train that travels from mainland China, up through Siberia in Eastern Russia, under the sea through the Bering Strait into Alaska, across the rocky peaks of Canada’s Yukon and British Columbia, and into the USA. Once constructed, they have could further extend their international bullet train into every corner of the US.

https://www.iflscience.com/technolog...ne-to-the-usa/

Markus

[mapuc]

Back to the political and military discussion.

We, us here on this forum are ordinary deadly people with our standpoints. Some of us has told others our standpoints regarding this Chinese behavior towards Taiwan and countries with sea border in the South China Sea

But as mentioned we are deadly without influence on foreign politics in our country, EU or UN. Yes we have one vote.

Right now there's a type of pre-trial running here in Denmark it's called The Tibet Commission their task is to:

"Terms of reference for a commission of inquiry to carry out a supplementary inquiry into the case of police intervention in connection with demonstrations in connection with Chinese state visits, etc. and to examine the handling of certain other official Chinese visits."

Background.
A group of demonstrate was standing with the Tibet flag when they suddenly was attacked by the police who tried to tear their flag away from them.
(it looks more and more like good old days political scandal)

I'm therefore convince that our politicians have a Janus face-one in public telling you and me that they will not accept this Chinese behavior and unofficially they are weak towards China.

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

We, us here on this forum are ordinary deadly people with our standpoints.

Mortal. The word you meant to use probably was "mortal", not "deadly".

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Mortal. The word you meant to use probably was "mortal", not "deadly".

I stand corrected

Markus