Manual Targeting in TMO different from stock game?

[Barkerov]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Okay, let's first look at what the TDC does when the position keeper is on. What it's really doing is setting up an artificial target. When you shoot, you are not shooting at that ship out there, you are shooting at the TDC's artificial target. You WILL hit the artificial target. But, because it really doesn't exist you don't get booms! That is, unless there is a REAL target occupying the same spot where the artificial target is hit.

Our job is to make the artificial target move at the same speed and course as the real target and be superimposed exactly on top of the real target. Kapeech? Ever thought of it that way?

This artificial target vs real target way of thinking is exactly how I think of it. It becomes painfully clear that this is the way it should be thought of when you look at the attack map. It's best feature IMO is that it shows you the actual target along with marking the artificial target.

Thanks for that RR. It makes total sense to me to start the PK right off the bat. Also Razark nailed it with how he does the AOB. Just match it up to the target course. We don't actually give a crap about what the AOB is in and of itself, that was just the way target course information happens to be fed into the TDC.

Time to go out there and
SINK EM ALL

[razark]

Originally Posted by Barkerov

We don't actually give a crap about what the AOB is in and of itself, that was just the way target course information happens to be fed into the TDC.

I've always looked at it the other way. AoB is important, because it's one of the three angles of the triangle that we are so interested in:
Note that "Target Course" isn't even on this picture.

It doesn't matter what the target course is, unless you figure in your own heading. AoB remains AoB, regardless of which way you're going. It just happens to be easier to get enemy course directly from the map. Well, you could plot everything relative to your boat, say on a maneuvering board, and get the AoB without knowing anything about your own course, I suppose.
Of course, it's all just different ways of looking at the same problem. You can drag out complex math, draw it out on graph paper, solve it on a slide rule, or hand it to the TDC. (And they definitely knew it during the war. You'll find that subs often had a fire control party working independently of the TDC by another method.) As long as you understand that triangle and what it means, you're on the right track.

[Barkerov]

Yeah that's a good point that I was forgetting. AOB has the distinct advantage of being a relative measure. Course is absolute.

[Rockin Robbins]

That's why you first plot the target track (course) on the nav map and then use the protractor to get the AoB. You can also enter the course directly into the TDC by using the outer set of numbers opposite the bow of the target. That's a multi-step process, but a pretty quick one.

But the AoB has nothing at all to do with your course. I'm away from all my graphics wizardry so I'll have to describe what's going on here. The angle on the bow is your sub's bearing in German nomenclature (starboard/port zero to 180 degrees). Your bearing does NOT CHANGE based on what course you are on, any more than a target's bearing changes when measured from your sub depending on its course.

I don't know where the commonly believed fallacy of AoB being dependent on your course came from, but it's dead wrong. It doesn't matter whether you enter course or A0B into the TDC--they are different ways of measuring the exact same quantity regardless of your sub's course. If your PK is on before you enter AoB, changes in sub position will change that AoB but will not change enemy course in the TDC. If the PK is off it doesn't change and is instantly wrong if you move.

[razark]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

...the commonly believed fallacy of AoB being dependent on your course...

Is that commonly believed? I've never heard of that until you mentioned it.

[Rockin Robbins]

I've run into it repeatedly. However referencing your diagram shows clearly that owncourse is entirely irrelevant to AoB.

[Mallet]

All of these answers have been really helpful and that explanation by rockin robbins made it clearer than it has ever been to me. I just want to know few more things. Do you need to send the bearing individually of range or is the bearing automatic? Also when using radar or hydrophone to send information to tdc, does it update the tdc dials or is it just inputing the info without any kind of acknowledgement? When I click send range from hydrophone to TDC, i can never tell that it has actually done it. Of course, if there is already an explanation as clear as the one in this thread about it, please point me in the right direction, the overall theory behind all the variables effects on targeting is interesting and helpful.

[Gray Lensman]

For Mallet (in particular) The following is much simpler to learn as a newbie, then you can explore the PK/AOB/sonar/radar complexity AFTER you are more familiar with the simulation:

With regards to using the TDC in all its complexity, (especially with the PK usage), I find that complexity for the sake of necessity in a game can be fun, however, even Dick O'Kane used a much less complicated modified constant bearing method of torpedo fire control that was much simpler and can be closely emulated in game. In fact Rockin Robbins himself has a video demo showing its simplicity. See

Utilizing this constant bearing method, you don't ever need to turn on the PK, let alone worry about intermittent AOB/range readings. In fact all you need to start is initial course and speed so you can plot an end around if necessary to position yourself right off that course. Of course a few intermittent observations are necessary to verity that the target is indeed continuing along that course with/without a zigzag. Work your way into an approx. 90 degree intercept point at your preferred range. I generally use 600, but sometimes as necessity dictates will increase the distance. I will not set up less than 600 due to torpedo arming distance.

With that in mind, and the approx. intercept point determined, you can preset the TDC with speed first, then preset what the predetermined AOB will be AT that intercept point. I use 10 degrees lead AOB for 8 knots or less, 15 degrees lead AOB for 9 to 12 knots, and 20 degrees lead AOB for any speed over 12 knots.

Then at this same time, I preset the scope/TBT to the same lead angle (10,15, or 20 degrees), basically looking straight down the same heading as the AOB lead angle. Keep in mind, the sub itself will be pointed at close to 90 degrees to the target track. After the normal double clicks on the TDC, you can determine that your setup is almost perpendicular to the target AND you can do a quick check on the attack map screen to see that the torpedo is set up to fire at the approx 90 degree intercept gyro angle you have set into the TDC.

Usually, I have the TDC already pre-setup WAY in advance of reaching the intercept point. This allows me to quickly make a simple one parameter change and re-double click if something necessitates a change. Keep in mind that you have to have the fore/aft torpedo selected that you are plotting to fire along with the scope/TBT lined up along the same lead angle. The latter two items can really mess with your mind when you re-double click and you have moved them since the last time you double clicked. Again this can be confirmed with the left side TDC ship image displays and a quick glance at the attack map screen.

All you have to do now is place yourself at the predetermined intercept point and wait for the target to cross the Periscope/TDC wire. In effect the target has placed itself on the pre-determined artificial target point without you having to make all sorts of bearing/range/AOB observation inputs to the TDC/PK referred to in the earlier post(s) above. I use this technique in almost all my intercepts because I figure if Dick O'Kane used this method it's good enough for me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you add up all the sunk tonnage he was responsible for (Wahoo AND Tang), he was probably the leading sub ace in WWII.


Some notes:

I try to ensure that the target will indeed be at or slightly outside the predetermined TDC range setting (especially at higher target speeds). The reason for this is at such close range and higher target speeds the TDC lead angle will cause a bow shot to actually cross in front of the target instead of intercepting the bow. This intercept range is adjusted preferably by a small judicious forward/reverse ship movement, but can be done on the TDC, (necessitating double-click rechecking of the solution of course).

Just because you have set up a solution waiting for the target to cross the wire does not mean you have to abandon the shot if you have managed to be a little late raising the scope all the way up. In that case, keep your calm, move the scope a little ahead of the target bow, double click the TDC and fire when he crosses the wire at that new point. This quick snap shot re-setup did not change any TDC settings except the periscope bearing it was fired on, so it usually works and for sure the target is probably slightly further from the pre-determined range referred to in the earlier note above.

This constant bearing technique is much more adaptable to quick snap-shot solutions when you are in the midst of a group of ships than the PK/AOB observations earlier discussed.

You can also use this constant bearing method at sub headings different than a 90 degree tangent, which is helpful in mult-ship convoy intercepts. You just point the sub at your chosen intercept angle and then set the AOB to (10, 15, or 20 degrees) lead from that and align the scope/TBT to that same lead angle. This allows you to shoot at a further target as it crosses the wire using a slower torpedo speed setting, then quickly resetting the TDC range to an inside target and firing torpedoes at a faster speed setting resulting in near simultaneous detonations. (This assumes all the convoy ships are on the same course and speed)

Remember the object of the game/simulation is to sink tonnage in as realistic (but not necessarily as complicated) a manner as possible, depending on your enjoyment factor of course.

[Mallet]

Gary Lensman, I just tried that method and succeeded right away, quite amazing how fast that was. I have had some success in the past using the regular TDC system, range, AOB, Speed, and all that. However I just sometimes fail for a reason that I really cant find. The ocean was pretty wavy but my speed calculation and AOB was correct, but the bearing/ range just wasnt putting the artificial target over the actual target. I couldnt use the stadimeter as the waves obstructed my view so I used sonar instead. Perhaps my range and bearing was off somehow. I think I am getting better but my attempts at normal TDC usage are 40/60 success to failure.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Mallet

Gary Lensman, I just tried that method and succeeded right away, quite amazing how fast that was. I have had some success in the past using the regular TDC system, range, AOB, Speed, and all that. However I just sometimes fail for a reason that I really cant find. The ocean was pretty wavy but my speed calculation and AOB was correct, but the bearing/ range just wasnt putting the artificial target over the actual target. I couldnt use the stadimeter as the waves obstructed my view so I used sonar instead. Perhaps my range and bearing was off somehow. I think I am getting better but my attempts at normal TDC usage are 40/60 success to failure.

In my experience any torpedo solution in seas resulting from winds over 12 meters/sec is likely to fail and even 10 meters/sec can be iffy. This is regardless of the solution accuracy. Seems the torpedo(s) don't like to cope with the rough water. I've had shots lined up as described above at 600 yards, the ship just crawling along at 5 knots and still no hit (not even duds). I have made it a note to self not to waste torpedo(s) if the wind is 12 knots or greater and unless I'm just desperate to use my last torpedo so I can head to the barn, I won't bother unless the wind is 9 meters/sec or less.

edit> The random weather model in this game is so screwed that I've seen times when a 15 meter/sec storm lasted for game weeks across most of the pacific, going from east to west north of the equator against the prevailing winds no less, much like the great Red spot on Jupiter LOL. Usually in those cases if I have not made a contact and the wind is stuck on 15 meters/sec (not 14 or less), I will just semi-rage quit and restart from the last save. Even then it might take several restarts until a restart results in a weather taper down. It's just so frustrating the amount of detail devoted to the game/simulation and then have to deal with totally illogical weather patterns that span half the Pacific or more in effect resulting in once in a 1000 year earth storms constantly. Yes I'm running a weather mod patch for TMO but all it seems to do is make the bad weather seas more realistic. It doesn't seem to do a darn thing about maxed out wind duration.

Don't quit in a rage, try the Ctrl-N cheat to immediately change the weather!!

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by jldjs

Don't quit in a rage, try the Ctrl-N cheat to immediately change the weather!!

Did not know that one... Thanks

Seriously, though, to me, the weather model in this game is the only thing seriously flawed enough to ruin the gameplay. I'm hoping that's one of the things addressed in Webster/Rockin Robbins new mod.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Did not know that one... Thanks

Seriously, though, to me, the weather model in this game is the only thing seriously flawed enough to ruin the gameplay. I'm hoping that's one of the things addressed in Webster/Rockin Robbins new mod.

You know, that one wasn't even on the radar. But now it is!

Yes, people have asked "if the US submarine TDC was so all-fired sophisticated compared to the German one, why didn't they sink a lot more ships!"

Complexity results in errors. Sometimes complexity results in unquantifiable errors that can't be mitigated. The real Achilles Heel of the stadimeter measurement of range/bearing (yes, in the game, both are always sent together to the TDC when you press send) is that it absolutely depends on correct identification of the target. Most targets in the real war were identified WRONGLY. That will result in an error that can't be predicted or quanified. The secondary problem of the stadimeter is the difficulty of judging exactly where the tip of the mast is, or exactly where in that thick line is the waterline. A one-click error can be a significant number of yards. When combined, these two error sources are a barrel of laughs.

The Germans, and us if we use a constant bearing technique like the Dick O'Kane method, didn't give a rat's patootie about identifying a target except maybe for bragging purposes in the bar between cruises. Range didn't matter much to them because their targeting method only cared about the angle between target track and submarine course and the speed of the target. Get those two somewhere close, close the range to 600 meters and the target goes down.

Simplicity is the simplest way to eliminate error. Every step you can eliminate. Every calculation, every measurement you do not need to make adds to the accuracy of your shooting.

[Mallet]

Can i ask why range doesn't factor in the Dick o'kane method? Kind of confuses me how you could pick any range and the torpedo wouldn't just turn way left to catch a target 10000 yards away versus 1000.

[Rockin Robbins]

When your gyro angle is near zero (angles less than 20 degrees were called "straight shooting" by American manuals) then the lead angle does not change for a target traveling at the same speed on the same course regardless of range. That really sounds opaque and is hard to understand. Try this:



Now you can see that all you need to know is the shoot bearing. Sight down that bearing and when juicy parts of the target present themselves you pull the trigger. Each shot is aimed as a specific spot on the target. It doesn't matter what the range to the target is--you will hit your spot if the target speed and your angle to the track are correct. And that, gentlemen, is what made German U-boats and a select few American sub skippers including Dick O'Kane, so deadly. Simplify! Then simplify more.

Target identification? Who needs it! Stadimeter? What in blue blazes is that doing on my boat? Toss 'em out and lets sink some targets!