Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.

Markus

Thats is called autonomy. You cannot be just partially independent. Either you are independent, or you are not, biut it san all-or-nothing-at-all thing. You mean to alter the existing conditions of autonomy that there already is, and altering them in favour of the Catalan people. Well, nothing to sayx agai nst that, I think this is whgat the majoriy of Catalan people also wanted, before Rajoy played tough on the referendum and started to piss the people in big numbers. How it is now, I do not dare to assess. Possible that now indeed a majority wanst independence. Possible also that the thrats by economic actor like companies and banks to leave catalonia, made people rethinking independence. I do not dare to assess the mood, how could I. Just the arrogance of the powerful in europe, that a constitution that says that some people in end effect are possession of other people and have no right to leave these other people, this arrogance I find nerve-killing, and unacceptable. At the Nurm,eberg trials after WWII, they had soemthign to say about the illegalness of certain orders that were used by some Germans to hide behgind "I just followed orders". Orders can per se be illegal by standard of superior ethics. So can be legal rights of people that no constitution ar state-given law can make invalid, cancel, neutralise. People are not the property of states and politicians or other people. Any constitution or law, claiming the opposite, is invalid from all beginning on. Slavery is never valid and cannot be legalised in a valid fashion by any man-made law. Slavery gives every slave the factual right of trying to escape, to resist, to fight the slaveholder, even to kill him, if that is the only way to regain his freedom. Third party interests like that of the EU dogmatists, are irrelevant here. They are real, but not relevant. You cannot give freedom to people, since they had it from birth on, you can only, by the use of force, supression and violence, withhold freedom from people. So you better learn to be strong enough to defend your freedom, because there are many in thew world who want to takeit away from you. You can be right and have law on your side - but you also need the strength to fight for it, else it serves you nothing that you are right.

Im Recht sein, und Recht kriegen, sind zweierlei.

[mapuc]

Thank you Nikita and Skybird for you response.

I'm not that much into Spains politics.

The only thing i know is that Catalonia wants independence from Spain and I also know that in politics there are something called compromise.

I can understand Rajoy is refusing to talk about anything when it comes to Catalonia's wishes for independence.

This made me remember a friend who wrote-How many of you think there will be a second civil war in Spain.

I hope it will not go that far. I hope they will find a solution a compromise which both part can be happy with.

As I understand it Rajoy has the ball and I guess everyone is waiting for his answer.

Markus

[Hitman]

I am just astonished at the one-sideness of this thread. There is so much more in all this, that it becomes quite sad to see Nikita and Skybird's reduction and simplification of it to the usual independentist catalan version of the story.

It amazes me specially in you, Skybird, as usually a very well informed person, that you use several arguments that could be applied to Catalonia itself when it comes to his relations with other regions.

I could open my own thread explaining the cultural genocide that the catalan governments have done in the other catalan-speaking regions of Valencia and Baleares, pushing an imperialist unionist agenda (About their fantasy Paises Catalans) and using their control of university and funding to supress the local variety in the language in favour of the catalan standard, all in tight alliance with the left and the indiference of the right, who needed their votes in Madrid. All my ancestors since centuries ago spoke the beautiful valencian dialect, but now it has been almost eliminated in all its variety and richness in favour of the catalan standard that nobody really speaks, just because the big Catalonia has to tight the bonds of their imaginary nation.

3. Everybody has the right to be left alone by othe rpeople, if that is what he wishes. Nobody can be forced to live together with others if he doe snot wish that. Nobody can be forced to be of use for others. Violating this, is a violation of human rights.

Yeah, tell that to those in the nationalist catalan parties. Their not-at-all-secret agenda is to push the "Gleichschaltung" of Valencia and Baleares into their imperialist dream. I really am astonished at your contradictory support of the catalan referendum considering the 3 "human rights" you listed. Did you know that some parts of Catalonia do not want to be independent from Spain? So what about those? Why don't they have the right to decide to stay and instead have to suffer the imposition of the government from Barcelona of a single decission for everyone? That is completely contradictory with what you say, and yet you support it. Amazing. All and each of your thoughts can be conversedly applied to Catalonia, they do the same or worse things on their back door to their catalan speaking neighbours and inside their own territory. I will give you just some examples: They have been whining for decades for example about the "centralization" of the rail and highway lanes, all pointing to Madrid. Really? Pick a map of Catalonia and have a look. ALL highways and rails pass through Barcelona! To go from Martorell to Granollers by train you have to go first to Barcelona and switch there. I know, because I lived 5 years there. Another example: They consider an offence that some catalan art is stored in the Prado museum in Madrid. However they ripped away the painting in all churches in the Pirenees to bring them to the national arts museum in Barcelona. Not just hanging paintings, mind you, they even ripped wall-paintings. And they still as of today deny returning to their legitimate owners in Aragon and Valencia works of art that "appeared" in Catalonia after the civil war. Read about the Sijena monastry and the Codice of Orihuela.

I could go on for ages, but those are just examples. To me, their referendum is absolutely illegitimate as long as they are doing to others the same things that they whine the spanish government is doing them. They can't pretend to have a right they deny to others.

There is one point where I do agree with you all however, Rajoy has been an absolute disaster in all aspects. Uncapable and with the lack of greatness that the situation required.

[Skybird]

Hitman,

I am quite aware that my understanding of the matter probably, most likely is limited, thats why I reduce my own views on it to most profound human rights and lead principles, my general deep mistrust in every poltician, the obervation of behavior of the political protagonists (note that while I attacked Rajoy, I also expressed that I do not trust Puidgemont either), and a general overview on the histoy of the catalonian-Spanish relation, which i searched and read about just recently when they had the referendum, starting with the Romans' sending of Visagoths as a policing force to their Iberian province, the varying alliances of their later descendants with Aragon, France and - was it Castilia? I may mistake it, maybe. And next the subjugation of the Catalonians as result of the War of the Spanish Succession, and finally the Catalonian fight against against Franco, which again had them as the loosers to the Spanish. I fail to see that the modern outcome is the result of always free and voluntary decisions and choices, force and vioelnce and treaosn had much more to do with it, I got the impression. Not only are they not of the same origin as the Spaniards, but they got dealt mixed outcomes by the going of history - and they ended often on the loosing end of the storyline.

My decisive criterion however is that as a libertarian I will allways defend the right of a regional population, a people to stay for itself, if that is what they want. They better be sure they can afford it and can defend themsleves then, but the right to be free they have. everybody has that right, its his birth right. Nobody gets born into being legally owned. I have no room in my ethical system for that idea. No claim can be made by others that this people has to stay in union with them because these others want to continue to profit from it, this never is a valid argument. Like a couple where the one does not love the other anymore and wants to split the marriage, the other can regret it, can try to convince his partner, can be angry - but there cannot be any law that would not be a violation of human rights that allows the one - historically the male - partner - to deny the cancelling of the marriage to his wife if she wants the split. Such laws belong to the garbage of history, thats where theyx shoudl be put. The church may be against it, the state may be against it, tradition may be against it, customs may be agaiunst it - still it remains to be a violation of basic human rights.

Freedom. There is nothing more precious. By oure random chance, just minutes ago I have read this in a German blog:

"Freiheit bedeutet auch, den Grad der Inanspruchnahme der persönlichen Freiheit individuell bestimmen zu können.

Diesen Grad unter dem Schlagwort des „Sozialen“ und der „Gerechtigkeit“ herunterzudimmen auf ein Minimum und dieses Minimum mittels Zwang als das einzig gültige Mass allen anderen aufs Auge zu drücken, ist die Diktatur der Lauen und Laschen."

I am not biased against spaniards, Hitman. I do not know Spain, all I experienced from it is a rushed train travel with me almost never having left the train ( I was heading for Marocco, not Spain itself), and a handful of Spaniards I met at university and in several jobs later on. No problems wiht them, never, I have nothing against Spain and Spaniards, and hold no hostile bias there. Those Spaniards who have stayed in Germany after they came in the 60s, have full and well integrated, are the best example of that migration and integration can work very well indeed - since decades. Again zero problems there. You have never heard me complaining there, haven't you.

But here is politics confronting freedom. And as a libertarian it is clear where I must stand. That has nothing to do with sympathy for or against political actors althoguh I dispise Rajoy (alreadey before), and also miustrust Puidgement. Thats why I said both have to be chased out off ther backyard. Its a superior principle all this is about: freedom. And I cannot see that Spain has real claim to make for the Catalonians, not after this history there was.

Please, dont take this personal. Its not personal at all, at least not for me. I would regret it if you take personal offence from my postings in here - but that would not make me change my mind. Good argument that I found convincing, however could make me change my mind, maybe - it depends.




Edit:

P.S.

I expressed repeatedly my doubt that indeed a substantial numerical majority of Catalonians wanted to split from Spain, I thougt they wanted more autonomy and a correction of financial transfers that leave them too much ad disadvantage at their own cost. I said that repeatedly, and even two posts above or so I said so again. However, I also said that i could imagine that the behavior by Madrid has hardened the front so much that now maybe indeed of Catalonians are so bitter that now there would be a majority. Its possible but I cannto say, I do not read people'S inner moods and tempers. And just hours before Rajoy annoucned his demand that he wants eleciton in Catalonia, I issued the same idea in apost, not knowing of his plan, and said Catalonians should have elections so that the parliament i sup to date with representaives for and against independence, and that then they shoukd immediatedly vote on independence yes or no. I still think this is the best idea. Cionsidering that the first half of it is the same what rajoy wants, do you still accuse me of being blindly biased against Spain? I propose this plan not because I sympathise with Spain, but because imo it makes sense and is the most reasonable possible going from here. Elecitons, vote in parliament, and the n the rersult has to be acceoted.

By both sides.

But Madrid has to move, instead of just demanding, with imperial arrogance, obedience and subjugation. It has no ethical fundament from which it could do that. Mayn Catalonians know of the economic and financial fragility of independence, and the signs for hardshipos in the future have grown in the past days. Madrid must make concessions and act less imeprial and arrogant. Then maybe it will find that its fears for a referendum, indeed are unfounded. But with the fight Rajoy preferred instead of that, this all now is unpredictable. fI the one demands the other to in principle submit himself unconditionally, then this never raises good sentiments in the subjugated. You reap what you sowed. True for Spain. But true for Catalonia as well.

[Hitman]

Skybird,

you are just another victim of the misinformation that floats around. Catalan nationalists, especially so the more extremists, are obviously very active in social nets and everywhere they can push their agenda. This is the same as with the palestinians, they generate sympathy all around among everybody not truly informed of what is going on. You obviously (As many other people, me included) have a set of personal convictions strongly based in the individual freedom and that seems to click with the catalan demands, but the truth is way more complex than those demands.

I share your views about freedom as most precious teasure in any human, I am a full liberal myself and could not agree more with that you say. But the biggest part of the freedom in a choice is having the full and impartial information regarding the subject of your decission. Otherwise your choice is not free, but instead strongly conditioned (Which you know better than me because of your proffesional training) -and that is exactly what is going on here. People are being used as pawns against each other by means of a huge amount of intoxication and manipulation, and unfortunately the nationalist side is way more proficient in that. I have seen (And had) enough debates with such people to know that their arguments don't stand the proof of critique, for them it's just pure guts feelings that are incitated from a powerful propaganda apparatus which points at a scapegoat as source of all evils.

[Skybird]

But I do not visit any social media - no TW, no FB, no nothing of that kind; how can I be hit by the propaganda in there then? My input is the mainstream TV which is quote pro-Spain, pro unity, pro-EU, some bits and ieces by Nikita, and some Google searches I did on history, and some economc and ficnncial key numbers, especially financial transfers. One thing is clear: Spain benefits more from Catalonia than Catalonia benefits fro Spain, Catalonia is a net payer for Spain, and the richest one. And by the end of the day this is most liely the key issue why Madrid does nt want to let it go. By the end of the day, its always about the money.


I have repeatedly said now that I do not trust Puidgemont, to me he is just another manouvering politician. That there are dubious political partners in his background, our ordinary state TV was very eager to point out time and again. I also repeatedly expressed that I disagree with his interpretation of the referendum, saying that he has not gotten a real majority. I repeatedly explained now why I think that such a majority maybe does not or did not exist, and why Madrid's arrogant acting may have changed that. I am aware of Soain having subatantial material interests in Catalonia. Its just that in case of a head on fight between the two over freedom for Catalinians, if they indeed want it, I see these interests as not bvalid enough as if they could give claim for Madrid over owning Cataonia. If that claim would be considered as legal only becasue Spain materialistically profiteers from owning Catalonia even aganst the populations will, then this wul be the textbook definition of slavery and occupation. Spains' intersts are real, they exist, they are a fact of the situation. But their mere existence alone do not legalise its claim to hold Catalonia as prisoner if the Catalonians do not voluntarily agree.

The best way would have been to replace the existing autonomy status with a newly negotiated one that drains less wekath fro catalonia. As I read it and see economical and financial numbers, they must feel like Spains milking cow, and this is what has brought them to wiling this conflict. They now. Nikita said they are not just sharing, but getting poorer whil he others are benefitting. This is by all what I have read about the financial and economic relations ties, true.

Here you have the minimum of concessions Madrid has make if it really wants peace and a chance to keep the Catalonians in the "union" . Reject this, and what you will get in the future, is escalating conflict, maybe even civil war - who knows.

In other words: does Spain want a union betwene equals and partners, or does it want submissive, servile vasalls that are supressed by force? The one side here lives too much at the cost of the other side, and this imbalance has to be corrected.

[Hitman]

Like I said, things are more complicated than simply looking at economic figures.

First of all, it is a matter of accepting or not that wealthier persons (Not territories, it's persons who have wealth after all) have to contribute more than poorer ones. All our occidental world is based on that principle, so on that base what happens is that there are more wealthy persons and companies in Catalonia than in other areas of Spain, and as a result they pay more taxes. If those persons moved elsewhere, they would pay elsewhere, so it's not that Catalonia is being targeted for being Catalonia as a cultural entity.

Second, the materialistic approach is not the main moving principle behind the will to keep Spain united. In case of separation from Catalonia, most companies would move into the rest of Spain (As already happened these last days) consequently increasing its wealth, and even if that did not happen, the new situation would place Spain as net receiver of UE funds instead as of contributor, as it became in the last years. So the rest of the UE would have to provide some of those funds that Catalonia no longer would, and then again if Catalonia would enter the UE it would pay the same to the rest of Spain, only via the UE. What there would be is a significant loss of political weight, as two smaller states obviously are not of the same importance as a bigger one -and that benefits both Catalonia and the rest of Spain.

Third, the current wealth in Catalonia is not just the simple product of their personal qualities and work ethics (Which are undeniable). Catalonia was heavily privileged during the 19th century and beginning of the 20th, including Franco's period. In 1787 the population in Galicia was 1,3 milions, while in Catalonia there were only 800.000 persons, but a century later it was the opposite. Why? Because governments introduced those special taxes and favoured heavily the catalan cotton industry (In Galicia they laboured with woven linen), as well as a the customs (Zoll) taxes that heavily benefitted Catalonia as natural land exit to europe. It was not any partial spaniard but the very own french writer Stendhal who was himself amazed at the privilegies issued to the catalans, and expressed his wonder about they willing to have them "Just for being born catalans".
As a consequence, Galicia sunk to the bottom and became a poor region and Catalonia started its surge. It was also one of the regions in Spain that most benefitted from its colonies, and coincidentally the first Catalan nationalist parties, predecessors to those claiming for independence today, were created immediately after Spain lost its latest colonies, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines in 1898. That is, after they lost a big part of their dear captive market. During Franco's dictatorship catalan culture and language was heavily repressed, but the industry was again benefitted with many national ones being located there (SEAT one of them) which, again, given the autharchy that was Spain back then, meant getting another captive market. So the catalan wealth has been created over history (Actually in the last 200 years, as it was a rather poor region before) based on extracting wealth from other regions of Spain thanks to captive markets. So I do not think that it would be fair to say that it's just the rest of Spain wanting to milk Catalonia, considering how much Catalonia has milked them over history to obtain their current status.

I'll post more later, have to go now.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Like I said, things are more complicated than simply looking at economic figures.

First of all, it is a matter of accepting or not that wealthier persons (Not territories, it's persons who have wealth after all) have to contribute more than poorer ones. All our occidental world is based on that principle, so on that base what happens is that there are more wealthy persons and companies in Catalonia than in other areas of Spain, and as a result they pay more taxes. If those persons moved elsewhere, they would pay elsewhere, so it's not that Catalonia is being targeted for being Catalonia as a cultural entity.

That is socialist drivel, sorry. The usual selflegitimation of plunderers to plunder the ominous "rich".

You also forget to mention that Catalonia pays into a nationwide fiscal compensation scheme, comparable to the one we have in Germany between the federal states and that bin German is called "Länderfinanzausgleich". I do not have an English translation for this word and do not know how you call it in spain, but it exists, I read quite a good description of it. More money flows out of Catalonia and into Spain, than money flows back. the discrepancy has become so big that not only must Catalonians share, while remaining "wealthy", but that they turn poor and disadvantaged. Nikita also mentioned that, but I read according descriptions as well. Its Madrid'S attempt to repair the fallout from the financial crisis whose symptoms broke out so harshly in 2007. At the cost of Catalonians, so immense coast that thery fundamentally flalb ack. We have the sam eprobklem in Germany since reunification, since then immense ammounts of money were paid fro West to East, now leading to thre absurd situaiton thta many cities in the East have far better and modenr infrastructure in capoitla cities then the eroding metroples in thwe West, namely in the Ruhr-Area. Needless to say, those in the West whio belkong to the loosing side due to these transfers of Wetsenr wEalth into the East, are pissed. They are expected not only to compensate for differences, but to get themselves abused for ther wellbeing of oithers. And that stinks.

Socialist redistribution schemes always are unfair, arbitary, and criminal. Thery want to bypass and shortcut ther market and its correct mechanisms, fostering the unfit and making ther healthy sick. And they always lead deeper and deeper into the delayed collapse of all. Always. As somebody once said: you do not help the poor by making the wealthier poor as well. You only bribe your audience that way, to get elected.

Its utmost dispiseful.

Second, the materialistic approach is not the main moving principle behind the will to keep Spain united. In case of separation from Catalonia, most companies would move into the rest of Spain (As already happened these last days) consequently increasing its wealth, and even if that did not happen, the new situation would place Spain as net receiver of UE funds instead as of contributor, as it became in the last years. So the rest of the UE would have to provide some of those funds that Catalonia no longer would, and then again if Catalonia would enter the UE it would pay the same to the rest of Spain, only via the UE. What there would be is a significant loss of political weight, as two smaller states obviously are not of the same importance as a bigger one -and that benefits both Catalonia and the rest of Spain.

I told Nikita myself that Catalonians should make certain thgey actualyl can afford, economically, to go independent, and that they are not independent if they need others, foreigners, to pay their bills. But this question is to be decided not by Eurpeans, not by Grmany, not by you Sopaniards, and not by anyone slese ecept thre CVataloniosn thremselves. Its their piece of land, its their will, and their decision. Theirs, and not Spains. They also have to accept the consequences, may they be good or bad. Freedom teaches self-responsibility. No self-responsibility - no freedom. Freedom is no all-inclusive holiday camp. Its fight for survival. Hard work.

Third, the current wealth in Catalonia is not just the simple product of their personal qualities and work ethics (Which are undeniable). Catalonia was heavily privileged during the 19th century and beginning of the 20th, including Franco's period. In 1787 the population in Galicia was 1,3 milions, while in Catalonia there were only 800.000 persons, but a century later it was the opposite. Why? Because governments introduced those special taxes and favoured heavily the catalan cotton industry (In Galicia they laboured with woven linen), as well as a the customs (Zoll) taxes that heavily benefitted Catalonia as natural land exit to europe. It was not any partial spaniard but the very own french writer Stendhal who was himself amazed at the privilegies issued to the catalans, and expressed his wonder about they willing to have them "Just for being born catalans".
As a consequence, Galicia sunk to the bottom and became a poor region and Catalonia started its surge. It was also one of the regions in Spain that most benefitted from its colonies, and coincidentally the first Catalan nationalist parties, predecessors to those claiming for independence today, were created immediately after Spain lost its latest colonies, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines in 1898. That is, after they lost a big part of their dear captive market. During Franco's dictatorship catalan culture and language was heavily repressed, but the industry was again benefitted with many national ones being located there (SEAT one of them) which, again, given the autharchy that was Spain back then, meant getting another captive market. So the catalan wealth has been created over history (Actually in the last 200 years, as it was a rather poor region before) based on extracting wealth from other regions of Spain thanks to captive markets. So I do not think that it would be fair to say that it's just the rest of Spain wanting to milk Catalonia, considering how much Catalonia has milked them over history to obtain their current status.

I'll post more later, have to go now.

I read it a bit differently, since Spain heavily benefitted from the econiomic rise of Catalonia - the spec al low taxes of back then, encouraged greater eco9nomic success in catalonia - and by this it paid more taxes, in quantity, back to Spain. It was self interest that amde Spain letting Cataklonia manage its economy, for Spoain ebefitted as well. And note that many Catalonians until just the past couple of years did not were too unwillingly to support Spain this massively, we are talking about one sixth of your population, but over 20% of the total economic prodcutivy of all Spain united. The point that rose anger, as I read it form the web and the media, is that in the past ten years this scheme was heavily abused and not only had the Catalonians compensating for the financial drama and losses of Spain's - self-made - financial debt mess and the collapsing construction boom (ther latter alsohit Catalonia), but Catlaonia had to accept more andmore own debts to transfer morer and more money to Madrid, which made the Spansih debt burd a bit less, helped to rebuild the collapsing civil society and its social ifnrastructure - and did so at the cost of eroding Catalonians who saw there own living conditions declining, with that of many 'Spaniards raising. And this is, I think what made the ball rolling until it now ended up on the penalty spot. - Nikita hinted the same.

Anyhow, Hitman, I doubt we will reach an agreement here. We two would aleaedy win if you would understand at least that I have no personal thing with you spaniards and support Catalonia not due to just my own ressentiments against Spain. That is not true. It is principal libertarian reasoning and base principles (I am hostile to the concpeiton of streong central states ijn general), and the perception of how I see the Catalaonian anger has build uop over the past decade, while verifying that with the fiancial development over that time.

Rjoya still acts like an emperor fighting for his right to own slaves like property: he now thinks its clever to issue threats of "direct governing". Thats as if Germany would threaten direct governing over Austria. Austria does not want to be untied with germany, how can we make claim Austria is ours and Austrians must serve as our workers and tax payers? Only becasue they speak - a slighty different, btw - German language? Its two quite close but neverthless different cultures and people with two quite different histories! Germans often overseer this when visiting Austria, getting misled by the shared language and thinking Austria ist just a continuaiton of Germany by others means, so to speak. Its not like this, and thus the fine but clear mentlaity differences.

Why I mention Austria? Becasue I got the impresison in past days that Spain holds a somehat comparable misled attitude towards Catalonians like many Germans toward Austria. The economic constellations of course are not comparable, however.



Sorry, couldn't resist.

Katalan national football league: "Over! The game is over! Barca's C-team has won! The A-team is the unlucky looser of this match! Now the title hardly can be stolen from the hands of the E-team anymore! The B-team will drop from the league, and the old boys' team rescues itself into the relegation playoffs !"

[Hitman]

Back now.

Anyhow, Hitman, I doubt we will reach an agreement here. We two would aleaedy win if you would understand at least that I have no personal thing with you spaniards and support Catalonia not due to just my own ressentiments against Spain. That is not true. It is principal libertarian reasoning and base principles (I am hostile to the concpeiton of streong central states ijn general), and the perception of how I see the Catalaonian anger has build uop over the past decade, while verifying that with the fiancial development over that time.

Oh no, don't worry, I always understood there was nothing personal against Spain there I just reacted because in the thread there was only one version of the story and the "dark side" of the catalan government had not been exposed.

That is socialist drivel, sorry. The usual selflegitimation of plunderers to plunder the ominous "rich".
...
Socialist redistribution schemes always are unfair, arbitary, and criminal. Thery want to bypass and shortcut ther market and its correct mechanisms, fostering the unfit and making ther healthy sick. And they always lead deeper and deeper into the delayed collapse of all. Always. As somebody once said: you do not help the poor by making the wealthier poor as well. You only bribe your audience that way, to get elected.

Its utmost dispiseful.

As a liberal myself I of course agree with that. I only mentioned it to highlight the fact that the higher contribution to that wealth transfer was not based on an attempt to undermine the catalan society or culture, but instead the usual occidental "welfare" socialism. In other words, I wanted to put the blame on the real reason behind (Catalans having more wealth) and not on the one the nationalists yell about (We are targeted because of being catalans). Culture/ethnics have nothing to do with this, it's -as usual - money. Of course wether we agree or not with that welfare system (You and me don't) is a completely different matter, but let me anyway highlight something also funny in the catalan nationalists: The vast majority of the coalition (ERC and CUP) are allegedly socialists/communists, yet their Leitmotiv is to cut the wealth transfer to the poor people of other regions, i.e. they discriminate between the catalan poors and the other poors and that despite being in favour of inmigration To say it in a different way: They want the exclusive right to plunder the catalan rich people and not share it with anybody else .... which seems hardly socialist, don't you think?

Thats as if Germany would threaten direct governing over Austria. Austria does not want to be untied with germany, how can we make claim Austria is ours and Austrians must serve as our workers and tax payers? Only becasue they speak - a slighty different, btw - German language? Its two quite close but neverthless different cultures and people with two quite different histories! Germans often overseer this when visiting Austria, getting misled by the shared language and thinking Austria ist just a continuaiton of Germany by others means, so to speak. Its not like this, and thus the fine but clear mentlaity differences.

Well put!! Indeed that is exactly what catalans do to us valencians, and to the balears people. Only that, unlike Germany, they are using all means available to them to promote that "Anschluss" So what I tried to highlight from the very beginning, is that the catalans like the palestinians have a very dark side hiding and are not worthy of support in their imperialistic projects - because they deny to others what they claim for themselves. And for the record, besides Madrid and Catalonia, Valencia is the only other net contributing region in Spain.

[Skybird]

Hm. Maybe you Valencians should declare your independence.

[Nikita]

Today we have to regret the death of the pilot of an Eurofighter during the landing maneuver, when he returned from the air show held in Madrid on the occasion of the feast of 12 October. My sincerest condolences to his family and friends.

[Nikita]

Well, Skybird, according to Hitman you have exchanged correspondence with someone from the dark side. I hope that does not cause you problems.

[Nikita]

Human Right Watch report on what happened in Catalonia: https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/...orce-catalonia

[Nikita]

Imperialism, Anschluss... Does anyone know if it is possible to do it without an army? Wow, maybe we could get to Vladivostok!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Nikita

Well, Skybird, according to Hitman you have exchanged correspondence with someone from the dark side. I hope that does not cause you problems.

Other than that just last night I started to levitate against my will, nothing to report.

Whats next? Am I getting used as a ball for you two playing ping pong?