Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Skybird]

For whatever it is worth, since it is in German language, an imo quite fair comment on the complexity of the issue and the desastrous failure of the European elites, the EU, the king, and Rajoy, and how this crisis deepens the crisis of the EU as well.

https://www.welt.de/debatte/article1...er-die-EU.html

While I voiced sympathy for Catalonians, I do not see how they could have a economically sustainable future if going independent. The eu will not take them. France will prevent it, Spain will prevent it, Belgium will prevent it, they all have their own independence movements that they fear they could encourage if letting Catalonia in. First intenraton corporations have started to prepare their withdrawel from the Catalon region.

There is only one reraosnmable way: the consuttuon form 1878 must be completely renegoatiated and the ficnail and econiomic ties must be redesigned between Catalonia and Madrid, to give more fairness to it all and prevent Madrid to abuse Catalonioa like it seems to have done especially in the past ten years. Independence mujst be afforded, and I cannot see that Catalonia can ecnomically afford independence.

The king better shuts up pronto, and nbever interferes again in thsi arrogant fashion. Rajoy is burnt as well, he must go. ThecCatalonian side seems to base on a fraigle, partly ocntradictor alliance of different parties with very different interts and agendas, they must be forced to become far more transparent as well. This is what the Catalonians have to make sure.

It seems, all sides have plenty of homework to do here. But before anything else, the arrogant, proud cocks that strut around so selfrightously have to be chased out of the arena.

[Jimbuna]

The eu will not take them. France will prevent it, Spain will prevent it, Belgium will prevent it, they all have their own independence movements that they fear they could encourage if letting Catalonia in.

Precisely

[Catfish]

Great Britain or England for that matter would not accept it either, for reason of Ireland and Scotland..
The EU as an organisation would accept them.
But there is too much nationalistic interest at stake. You can certainly also say that about some catalunyans though..

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

The EU as an organisation would accept them.

No it wouldn'T. Rules say that decisions by EU members on accepting new members must be made unanimous. Spain would not agree. Also, it wants to set precedenmces against independence movements, not rewarding them. The EU wants a continental centralised one-government and heavily denies the meaning and importance of regional identitiers, wants just one uniform continental super-culture, regional independence movements and states are an obstacle for that. See how the Sojet Union dealt with regional ethnic minorities and resettled tzhem, and forced people to live together that did not b elong together. Today, there is conflict and war in all ex-sovjet Russian provinces. The eU will harvest the same outcome later this century, if it does not get stopped.

The socialist party in Catalonia, which got 13% of votes in last elections, has acchieved a court rule that wants to ban that the Catalonian parlament meets, debates and votes on independence. They probaly would not have asked the court for help if they would think they get a voting result which they like.

Imagine the FDP or the AFD in Germany going to courts to ban the Bundestag from assembling when there is a vote to be held that these parties fear they could not win.

However, Puidgemont makes one awful mistake, too. He behaves as if a substantial majority of Catalonian people indeed have said they want indepüendence. But he got only around 4 in 10. The others did not vote. Whatever the reasons were.

Catalonians should hold general elections, to get a parliament that is most up to date with representation. And then this parliament should immediately hold a vote on independence. Madrid should shut up on this, so should Puidgemont. This way, people can vote on a parliament and send people to it of which they know they are for or against independence. whatever such parliament then votes for, must be taken as the basis for the forseeable future. - Last elections were held exactly two years ago.

[Nikita]

The main problem is that Spain refuses to talk. It is not a recent problem. She lost all of her colonies for the same reason.

These days you can listen most people and Spanish mass media saying Catalonia BELONGS to Spain, not Catalonia IS Spain. They are recognizing themselves that Catalonia is not Spain.

[Skybird]

Rajoy makes one mistake after the other, and really leaves a terribly foul impression of pure imperial arrogance. Unfortunately, he can count on Merkels support in the EU. I do not want other nations or the EU mediating, it is an issue that Catalonians and Spaniards must come to terms with all by themselves, based on realism, rationalty and pragmatism - only this can work. But Rajoy sets one maximum demand aftere the other, and does not listen, that is my impression, too. Gockelstolz. A very imperial attitude. Unconditional subjugation under the ownership of Spain.

I take only three basic natural laws as so fundamental and profound that I separate them from the many ordinary laws and describe their unsurpassable value by calling them "human rights".

1. No man gets born and lives for the sake of another. Nobody owns another man, and nobody can make claim for somebody else just becasue this other person exists, or owns somethign that the first person wants (see point 2 below). Violation of this law almost always means in the end: slavery.

2. Everybody has the right for private property, which is either things he freely and in mutual agreement traded and bartered with another being who also acted freely and voluntarily, or which he found in nature with nobody else having raised claim for it and making it his by the ransforming acto f work and labour by whiuch he turned free nature into something that now is his. Enforced migration into a country against the will of the people, is a violation of human rights. Demanding the other to share with the state and pay the state taxes, is a violation of human rights. Proivate property the statecan claim right sover, de facto already is expropriated and thus no private property anymore, but state property. This also is a villation of basic human rights.

3. Everybody has the right to be left alone by othe rpeople, if that is what he wishes. Nobody can be forced to live together with others if he doe snot wish that. Nobody can be forced to be of use for others. Violating this, is a violation of human rights.

These are the most profound rights I vcan think of, and they are even more profound than just sentimental idelaistic phrase slike "the right of living", "the right of breathing", "the right for ownign a credit card, a bank account", and what else they today list as "human rights". all this is shallow sentiments, which has no realistic basis in it, does not suit the hard test of making life in this world and the lviing together of people possibloe without necessartily cretaing forcre and violence. Nobody is obligated to be altruistic and to put the other before himself.

What people voluntarily give and do, is somethign different, and their own thing. As long as it is indeed voluntartily, is not being blackmailed and pressed for, no harm is beign done. But enforced "solidarity" is no solidarity, but violence and subjugation. Transparency and voluntariness are the key qualities separating the one from the other, separating force from voluntary help or solidarity. The threat of blackmailing Easteuropean states by the EU - is a violation of human rights. State reason demanding people to live in a state in which they do not want to live, is a violation of human rights. Forcing local residents to acceot migrants that they do not want, is a violation of human rights.

There may be worse offenders in the world, with far more bloody consequenses, I read and hear the global news, too - but nevertheless: Spain violates all three basic human rights that I described. It shouid instead prepoare for a split, learn to get aloing without Catalonia and live by it sown means and what it can afford - and under this precondition offer Catalonia new talks and negotaitons and invitation for a union and alliance under terms and codnitions that Catalonains find acceptable. Because I still think that the majority of Catalonians wish not really for a real split from Spain. Just to be seen as Madrid property and milk cow and needing to feed Madrid at their own disadvantage - that they want to stop: and this is what Madrid wants to continue.

He who sows winds, will earn storms.

Nikita, my suggestions somewhere above to have general elections in Catalonia, was almost 24 hours earlier than the news on TV that Rajoya directed the same demand to Catalonians. At leats to my best knowledge. I did not just parrot him.

[Nikita]

Today is the day.
At 6 pm (Spanish time) the Catalan Parliament meets. More than 1,000 journalists from around the world will cover the plenary session

[Nikita]

The bellicose language of the Spanish Government has been increasing in the last hours

[Nikita]

The start of the plenary is delayed one hour

[Nikita]

President Puigdemont follows the Slovenian route: declares the Independence of Catalonia and leaves it in suspense

[Nikita]

For the unionist parties, the referendum has been a coup

[Skybird]

Two trains avoided frontal high speed collision at last second. For now. You probably are disappointed, Nikita. Don't be. Game goes on, and a declared independence that cannot be maintained by own power and economy, is neither real independence, nor worth anything. Its an illusion. Hope both sides use the time wisely that has been won today.

[mapuc]

I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.

Markus

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Two trains avoided frontal high speed collision at last second. For now. You probably are disappointed, Nikita. Don't be. Game goes on, and a declared independence that cannot be maintained by own power and economy, is neither real independence, nor worth anything. Its an illusion. Hope both sides use the time wisely that has been won today.

No, I'm not disappointed, Skybird. I think is the best thing Puigdemont could do in the present circumstances. It has been a move to gain time.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I would not be surprised if Catalonia gets independence when it comes to domestic and some part economy and have to stay with Spain when it comes to defense and foreign affairs.

Markus

The problem is Spain does not consider Catalunya a political subject and refuses any kind of negotiation