Progressive Liberalism is a Mental Dissorder (merged)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by August

So a lone nut had a mental breakdown and took it upon himself to destroy a library in order to prevent anyone else from deciding it's value themselves. Sounds to me like this guy would have been right at home with the Inquisition or the folks who burned the library at Alexandria.

And that sounds like a man who has not the smallest clue what he is talking about.

You could as well say that Martin Luther King was a fascist trying to censor free speech ,and polishing his narcissistic ego only when attending huge crowds.

When one stays far away enough from the matter, it indeed seems like that, doesn't it. However, closer examination shows that he was about something totally different.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You could as well say that Martin Luther King was a fascist trying to censor free speech ,and polishing his narcissistic ego only when attending huge.

Number of libraries burnt down by MLK? Zero.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

And the terrible irony is that some of the western tradition's greatest preservers of knowledge and literature were these guys:

Originally Posted by CCIP

In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.

They might have done a good job in preserving ancient knowledge, but they did a terrible job in spreading the knowledge outside their own club.
Knowledge that is conserved but not shared is stale, dead knowledge.

Last but not least they actively prosecuted old knowledge (e.g. herbal healers outside of monasteries as witches) as well as new knowledge (e.g. Galilei as one of the most prominent examples)

Universities however are a two sided sword, many were found/influenced by the state and church - no big separation here. However imo they really started rolling when they got more autonomy and the church put less pressure and control on them.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Penguin

They might have done a good job in preserving ancient knowledge, but they did a terrible job in spreading the knowledge outside their own club.
Knowledge that is conserved but not shared is stale, dead knowledge.

In fairness, western Europe was rife with local warlords, almost universally illiterate and not at all concerned with artistic and philisophical matters. Charlemagne was regarded as one of the greatest leaders in medieval Europe in large part due to the fact that he could actually read. Such knowledge would have been wasted on them. That information waited for Europe to stabilize and mature, although by that point the Church itself had become a major player in political affairs and such knowledge was then deemed outside the sphere of acceptable church life. Those that protected this knowlede from outsiders then sought to protect themselves from the knowledge itself.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by CCIP

It might also be worth adding these guys:



In fact, much of what we know about ancient Greek philosophy in particular comes from the preservation work of Islamic (and also Jewish) scholars. It wasn't a hot topic in much of medieval Europe.

Originally Posted by MH

(not that this makes a lot of difference in present)

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Yeah, actually it does make a lot of difference. Humanity and it's progress are like a human ladder; you stand on the shoulders of those that came before you.

10 min section of a 45 min speech. Well worth watching, and VERY relevant. I'm sure at the least, Tak's will enjoy it.

[Skybird]

From the Sutra of the Sixth Chan Patriarch, whom Hui Neng was:

"Those who know the meaning, have gone beyond senseless words; thjose who have an insight into reason have transcended the letter. The teaching itself is more than words and letters, why should we seek it in these? He who attains the meaning, forgets the words; he has an insight into reason and leaves tghe teaching behind. It is like a man forgetting the creel when he has the fish, or forgetting the noose when he has the hare."

That was form the 8th century. And now Yuan-Wu from the 13th century:

"The truth of Zen is possessed by everybody. Look into your own being and seek it not through others. Your mown mind is above all forms, it is free and quiet and sufficient; it eternally stamps itself in you six senses and the four elements. Hush the dualism of subject and object, forget both, transcend the intellect, sever yourself from the understanding, and directly penetrate deep into the identity of the Buddha-mind; outside of this there are no realities. Therefore, when Bodhidharma came from the West, he simply declared: 'Directly pointing to one'S own soul, my doctrine is unique and not hampered by the cononical teachings (...)' "

Do you now get an idea on why Hui Neng pathetically stormed the library and destroyed it? It is the same reason why you take a piece of paper and throw it away when yiu filled it with wrong m ath calculations, or when you painted a rose and see that no matter how you paint it, it never catches the beauty of the original. It is the same reason why school teachers correct the mistakes of their students, and why I say that categorical thinking is inept to catch the real nature of reality.

Vandalism had little to do with it.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

We all must get found by the one koan in our life that hits us almost like a jumpkick right into the face. And when it has found us, then we must deal with it. Somehow. It's the one question in our lives that is more important and overwhelming than any other there is. And for everybody, it might be a different one. The risk is total, utmost dispair - the chance is utmost freedom. Not shortcuts, no refunds.

What if this leads one to....God?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Number of libraries burnt down by MLK? Zero.

Tak , see my posting right above.

Didn'T you once said you were into Aikido and Zen, or do I mistake your with somebody else? Direct tradition, sudden and full insight, the mistrust in written tradition - all that should not be anything new to you, then, nor shouzld the names of Hui Neng, LinChi (Rinzai) and Huang Po.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Tak , see my posting right above.

Didn'T you once said you were into Aikido and Zen, or do I mistake your with somebody else? Direct tradition, sudden and full insight, the mistrust in written tradition - all that should not be anything new to you, then, nor shouzld the names of Hui Neng, LinChi (Rinzai) and Huang Po.

Yes, yes, I've read D. T. Suzuki too.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by u crank

What if this leads one to....God?

Another dead end in human intellectual, dualistically structured, categorical thinking.

Go beyond the term "God". Transcend the letters and words, leave all these conceptions and intellectual categories behind, and all what you consider to be your ego. Burn the bible, storm the library, tear down the church. It means nothing, only inflames your mind with colourful fever, and it burns so hot and shines so bright that it bl,inds your eyes and you cannot see the real things anymore. You must not reach something, you have to give up something. All that is your real essence and nature, is already yours, and always has been, and always will be, but you plaster it with illusions, and hide it from yourself. We must not learn to do something, we must learn to let things. "God", "reality", "ideas" - the veil of Maya, disguising from our eyes the reality behind. Nobody must go anywhewre, we are already there, and never have been somewehre else. We are running in place, becoming tired, sweating, becoming exhausted - but we do not move away one step fro m where we are. Still we think it is a race, a competition for being first, being doiminant, and all the violence and supression, all that immorality and fanatism, all that hate and intolerance religions are more responsibloe for thany any other casue in human history of the poast 5000 years, is coming from this - our halucination that we are in a race, that we must progress, must be victorious, must advance and be the first.
We are like hamsters in a running wheel.

Seeing this can only be had at the price of giving up the conceptions of our"selves", and give up our idea about our egos. In other words, like I sometimes summarise it, self-realisation can only be had at the price of self-transcendence, if you want to become your real self, you have to give up your self.

Let go "God". Stop running, and let the wheel come to a rest. Then step out. And see how it feels to come to rest.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

In fairness, western Europe was rife with local warlords, almost universally illiterate and not at all concerned with artistic and philisophical matters. Charlemagne was regarded as one of the greatest leaders in medieval Europe in large part due to the fact that he could actually read. Such knowledge would have been wasted on them.

OK, now we get into a more philosophical direction. To me, knowledge is never wasted. Even the stupidest, nuttiest, brain damaged person has some things he is interested in and says: "great to know!".
If we are talking about medieval times, I am not neccessary talking about the stuff like art and philosophy. Given the work-intensive life of a peasant, many would have indeed seen knowledge about this as a waste - just as their rulers did.

I am blaming the church for not encouraging literacy. How many cool stories have been lost during the centuries, because nobody was able to write them down? And those who were able to, were busy copying the bible. It was not before the beginning of the 19th century here in Germany till the brothers Grimm wrote some of those old stories down.
Or applied mathematics: how to build a shed that doesn't fall down, how to pump water efficiently to drain the fields. All wisdom the old Greeks had and which just sat behind some walls.

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

the Church itself had become a major player in political affairs and such knowledge was then deemed outside the sphere of acceptable church life. Those that protected this knowlede from outsiders then sought to protect themselves from the knowledge itself.

spot on!
And this is for example why Martin Luther was deemed to be a dangerous man for translating the bible into the language of the commons. The people could listen to the words for themselves, make their own interpretation and were no longer dependent on the people who could read Latin.
(Is "prerogative of interpretation" the right term for it? Still longing for knowledge. )

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Yes, yes, I've read D. T. Suzuki too.

Reading Suzuki does nothing, but at least should prevent false "knowing" of theoretical info. But spiritually, every book is one book too much. I have given all my former books away (including those by Suzuki), all except one that is special. I could as well have "stormed the library" and burned them. But I lacked the audience to give sense to such theatralic acting.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Spirituality: to ask for where one comes from, where one goes, and why life and cosmos do exist. Spirituality is a state of an asking mind. - The spiritual mind knows that it does not know.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Seeing this can only be had at the price of giving up the conceptions of our"selves", and give up our idea about our egos. In other words, like I sometimes summarise it, self-realisation can only be had at the price of self-transcendence, if you want to become your real self, you have to give up your self.

If my 'spiritual mind' knows that it does not know, how then do I know who the real self is?

[chopper92]

Not much talk about submarines here. Still interesting stuff tho' and pleasing to see so much scepticism in you Americans - I'm just an ignorant Englishman who's just worked out that DNC = Democrats National Convention.

Was it Abe Lincoln who said "Judge not lest ye shall be judged"?

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by chopper92

Not much talk about submarines here.

And you won't see it on GT. General Topics is the grab bag for everything not game or submarine-related. It also has a monopoly on bad manners and poor behavior on the site, so tread at your own peril and be mindful of the trolls.