Is Westboro Baptist Church a hate group?

[soopaman2]

Let me put this in a simple way most any of us can understand.

Their tagline is "god hates Fags"

They go anywhere, where they and their inbred family can get attention.

Kinda reminds me of a deliverance kinda family, or a Texas Chainsaw Massacre kinda fellowship. Either way, I hope I am not pulled over in that part of town.

(I would rather deal with our gun happy police)

[Jimbuna]

No comment

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Actually some religious types not only don't forget that, they mention it loudly, insisting that it does not guarantee freedom from religion.

On the other hand, they don't mean the same thing by that phrase that you do. You mean freedom from being bombarded by religious proseletizing, whereas they mean freedom from the existence of religion.

Or maybe you mean that too?

I mean not needing to constantly defend my freedom against claims for more freedom and rights and more influence by religions, based on religious dogma.

I mean it in the way I get angry if companies would call me for advertizing at home and if I tell them I don't want that, they stop for a while, and then they start again or somebody else. Because it is annoying to be expected to take of the telephone three times per day - even if the other side falls silent once you told them they are not welcomed. I insist on my right and freedom to not need to be triggered like this time and again.

I mean that the public space, society, state-run institutions, education, law, and in general: places payed for and maintained by my taxes, should not be tailored and base on demands of religion, but should remain to be free of religious demands. Club rules are for clubhouses and the fenced property around it. Outside the clubhouse, they shall not apply. Nevertheless, they have to - always, in every case - be in conformity with the law of the land.

I play my radio in my rooms that way that my neighbours must not take not of it. If I want to listen to louder music, I take headphones. If I do not wish to use headphones, then I would need to find myself a place that I can afford and where I live all alone so that nobody gets effected if I pump up the volume. If I cannot afford that - then I either skip playing music, or must go back to headphones, or must get used to playing it more silent.

Keep thy music to thy ears. Don't attack others by pushing it down their ears, too, no matter whether they want or not. They may have their own tune.

Some extreme music lovers nevertheless can'T even get it when using headphones. They play it so loud that you can listen to their tune in all the bus or train waggon you sit in. That was when somebody experienced me tapping on his shoulders and giving him a grim look. So far, they got the message then, and turned more silent.

And then it was okay.

Still any doubts on your side regarding what I mean? It is very simple to live in peaceful neighbourhood with me, because I live by a simple physical law: force results in counterforce. Push me, and I push back. Push me more, and I push even stronger.

Don't push me, and don't get pushed by me. Tolerance, and freedom and all that is all nice and well: but I insist on equal terms for all, and reciprocity, and the obligatory nature of some basic rules that even religions should not be allowed to avoid.

Because religious people in no way are the more precious and valuable people. Have you read this year the sociological study where they examined the degree of helpfulness and willingness to help in religious people, and non-believers? The study found religious people to be more limited and rigid, and non-believers to be more willing to help and being more altruistic. The authors assume that it is because a non-believer does not enjoy the luxury of just following a dogmatic set of rules (and how often do these rules show anything by a helpful, friendly tolerant, altruistic mindset when considering how much bad "fate" is considered to be well-earned and God-wanted?) , but a non-believer must form and reflect over moral standards on a far more profound, basic level, since he has no "compass" provided by scriptures to follow, but must plot his own course. Believers often claim, unproven and unfounded, that without religion there would be no moral behaviour. Quite the opposite is the truth. Religions have condensated in the institutionalised format of the big world religions of today despite humans having formed moral standards. And all to often we see in side relgions these moral standards collapsing and being replaced by blind fanatism, hate and intolerance and all the resulting barbary and cold-heartedness towards humans believing in the "wrong colours". Every religion seems to have an exoteric, institutional, dogmatic, profane (= directed at the world, power, control) face, which I always see as negative, and an inner, esoteric level, that can be called mystic, enlightenment, Zen, whatever. As I understand it, free masonry is about that, and is about safeguarding against the dark side of exoteric religion. People of the latter type you can get along with very well, as long as they do not turn into simple-minded new-age dilletants. But the exoterically religious by definition are fundamentalists and fanatics of varying degrees of severity. And these must be confronted and stopped, no matter how, no matter the cost - else they destroy everything else in the name of their "religion". Some are active aggressors, other give passive support by not opposing them and thus giving them the opportunity to unfold. Both are as guilty, however.

So Skybirds self contradictory nature comes into play again.
Don't push me and I won't push you but if you don't push them then I will push you too

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I tend to agree about tax-exemptions for belief, but here you are insisting on limiting freedom of speech. You can turn anyone away from your own door, and you can tell anyone who approaches you in public to leave you alone. You cannot make a law preventing them from trying to talk to you.

Being called at home for advertising something once or twice a year, is nothing I keep my mind busy with.

Being called several times per week, seeing campaigns by the according companies to change laws on behalf of their interests and people not buying them getting discriminated and demanded to be stripped of freedoms and rights that others take for granted for themselves - that is something different.

Yes, I demand not to be approached constantly as long as I have not asked and have not invited them. I understand missionising to be an act of aggression. Even more so since it is one of its principles not to encourage questions and critical reflection, but to paralyse both and instead push a pre-fabricated message along the neurons's axons.

[Cybermat47]

Originally Posted by Skybird

instead push a pre-fabricated message along the neurons's axons.

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

[soopaman2]

Where does it end?

Where is our right to strike back?

Their "god hates fags" crap echoed over so many funerals of American war dead, Where is my justice? Where is my fair play?

These people blame all the ills of American society on Homosexuals, seriously???

When I blame all our ills on religious Christian extremists.


So it does not end, they blame me, I blame them, though in this particular case, the idiocy is clearly on their side. (for once)

Jesus taught above all, forgiveness.

The one thing religious extremists like this lack, and the eventual downfall of America, mark my words.


Edit: for the record, pork and shellfish is off limits too, but the queer haters never bring that up when they quote Leviticus and Deutoronomy, as well as sleeping with an unclean woman, (on the rag) something we all did.

I have a feeling someone will be along to clean this up and chastize my bluntness, since I am no friend of mods around here. (Yeah you,)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

Oh the irony in this question.

The answer cannot be any different than "Yes"...!

Serious now. I refuse to love everybody for sure. It's a violation of my sense of reason to love jst everybody, and it also is beyond my capacity and strength to love 7 billion people, counting. Let's be honest, all the world is a little too much for our human shoulders, let's chose some more realistic proportions then. I like some people - and others I don't. I tolerate some people - and some I don't. And I believe in the good of a some people - but not in something good in all people. Some are to be handled with care - some are just scum.

And many religious sectarians tell you that you will be loved only if you believe the right things - theirs. Many institutions do that, too, and threaten you with hellfire and eternal doom if you don't.

And be honest - does it really need a religion to tell you to treat the other friendly if he treats you friendly, too? Haven't you already come to that idea all by yourself, long before the first religion knocked on your door?

Religious dogma of this or that sect, school, dogma - it all is prefabricated stuff for sure, tailored to support the club'S claim for power, control over people and their minds, and special status given to them and demands announced that all other should believe what they believe, else...! Superstitious retaliation in the next life at best, oppression and discrimination and progroms in already this profane present reality at worst. Save me!

[soopaman2]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

No comment

No offense Mr. Buna.
I understand you were an LEO, and a damned good one, but America is kinda infected.

Protect-my-pension-itus

British gentlemen are excused from my above comments.

[Cybermat47]

Skybird, you know that if all religous institutions lose their tax exempt status in your country, they're just going to come knocking on your door even more asking for donations

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

A pre-fabricated message...telling you to love everybody, which is what most people already do, is something that you're sick and tired of?

That is not what religious proselytizers say...none of them. They try to convince you that their way of belief is the only way, and that you need to join them. The message of love is almost never mentioned. Perhaps at your young age you've never been aggressively approached by dozens of different persuasions of believers over a period of several years, but once you're an adult you will find all types of people trying to convince you that your way is wrong and their way is right.

To be honest, I sympathize with them up to a point, since if you truly believe that not believing as you do results in a quick trip to hell then you want to save as many people from that fate as you can, but it does get old after awhile.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I mean not needing to constantly defend my freedom against claims for more freedom and rights and more influence by religions, based on religious dogma.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Being called at home for advertising something once or twice a year, is nothing I keep my mind busy with.

Being called several times per week, seeing campaigns by the according companies to change laws on behalf of their interests and people not buying them getting discriminated and demanded to be stripped of freedoms and rights that others take for granted for themselves - that is something different.

I knew exactly what you meant, and to a point I agree with you. I was just point out that there are religious types who believe that "freedom from religion" means taking away their right to worship what they want.

Other than that, we are in accordance. I think we just disagree about where to draw that line.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

So Skybirds self contradictory nature comes into play again.
Don't push me and I won't push you but if you don't push them then I will push you too

Actually that wasn't what he said, and you're showing your own bias again.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Cybermat47

Skybird, you know that if all religous institutions lose their tax exempt status in your country, they're just going to come knocking on your door even more asking for donations

Yep, and he can close the door in their face for no extra cost.

[Armistead]